French Tailoring Thread (e.g. Camps de Luca, Cifonelli, Smalto and etc.)

[dirnelli]

I disagree with the conclusion of The Economist: I don't think we will be able to afford bespoke suits as their price increases, I don't see my income progressing faster than their rate of inflation, and I don't see the price decline of other goods make up for the shortfall.

 

[CrimsonSox]

Fixed. I changed to link to get a straight definition of Baumol's cost disease without the Economist's predictions.

 

[VRaivio]

...just for posterity, I have copied the price list added to George Frazier's The Art of Wearing Clothes, which was published in 1960. The prices reflect what "the best" American and British tailors charged for their time and patience back in the days, though I don't have buying power info of the 1960s dollar at hand.

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

SOME OF THE BEST-DRESSED MEN IN THE UNITED STATES

Here, listed alphabetically, are some men who are unquestionably among the “best-dressed” in the United States.

DEAN ACHESON — Educated at Groton and Yale and a member of the Chevy Chase and Metropolitan clubs in Washington, D. C., and the Century in New York, this sixty-seven-year-old former Secretary of State resides in Washington, where he has his suits made by Farnsworth-Reed, Ltd. ($225).

FRED ASTAIRE — This sixty-one-year-old song-and-dance man, who is a member of the posh Brooks and Racquet & Tennis clubs in New York, favors English-type jackets, suede shoes, often uses silk handkerchiefs as belts. He has had many suits made by Anderson and Sheppard of London, but, at the moment, he is using John Galuppo of Schmidt and Galuppo, Inc., of Beverly Hills. His shoes are by Peal of London; his shirts by Beale and Inman and Hawes and Curtis (both of London), Brooks Brothers and Wendley in New York, and Machin and J. T. Beach of Los Angeles.

BUSH BARNUM — The forty-eight-year-old advertising and public-information director of the Glass Container Manufacturers’ Institute graduated from Colgate in 1933, resdies in Gramercy Park in one of Manhattan’s most desirable apartments, and has been a Bernard Weatherill ($260 and up per three-piece suit) customer for more than a decade.

A. J. DREXEL BIDDLE —A graduate of St. Paul’s School in Concord, New Hampshire, and a member of the Philadelphia and the Racquet clubs in Philadelphia, the Brooks, Racquet & Tennis, Knickerbocker, Union and River clubs in New York, and the Travellers in Paris, Biddle (whose wardrobe is itemized earlier) has for many years devoted himself to public service.

BILL BLASS — This thirty-eight-year-old designer for Maurice Rentner lives in Manhattan, has his suits made at Lord of New York.

J. ANTHONY BOALT—At thirty-two, Boalt, of the class of ’50, at Yale, is the youngest and one of the most handsome men on the list. A businessman in New York, he resides in Greenwich, Connecticut. His tailor: J. Press.

DAVID TENNANT BRYAN —The fifty-four-year-old Bryan is publisher of the Richmond, Virginia, News Leader and Times-Dispatch and a former head of the Association of American Newspaper Publishers. His tailors: Bernard Weatherill and others.

JOSEPH BRYAN III — A graduate of sanctified Episcopal High near Richmond, Virginia, where he was born, and of Princeton. Bryan, a cousin of D. Tennant Bryan, is a member of the Racquet & Tennis Club in New York. A writer whose assignments take him around the world, he has frequent opportunities to visit Kilgour, Franch & Stanbury and Strachan & Hunt in London and Bernard Weatherill in New York.

HUGH A. COLE — The thirty-five-year-old Cole (one of the eight men in their thirties on the list) is a prominent sportsman, an excellent golfer and a fine horseman, as is fitting the son of Ashley T. Cole, the Chairman of the New York State Racing Commission, should be. He graduated from the Hun School of Princeton, New Jersey, attended Columbia University, is the father of four daghters. He belongs to the Short Hills Club and the Essex County Country Club, both in that county of New Yersey, where he resides. His furnishings are by Sulka; his ties by Tripler and by Charvet; his hats by Cavanagh; and his suits are by Brooks Brothers and by Noman Hilton.

MILES DAVIS — The thirty-four-year-old genius of “progressive jazz” trumpet is an individualist who favors skin-tight trousers, Italian-cut jackets. His seersucker coats, which have side vents, are custom made. His tailor: Emsley (New York), which charges $185 a suit.

RICHARDSON DILWORTH —The sixty-two-year-old mayor of Philadelphia graduated from St. Mark’s and Yale. A member of The Racquet club in Philadelphia, he patronizes among others, Meyers, Inc. ($255 a suit and up) in that city.

RICHARD DORSO —The fifty-year-old vice-president in charge of TV programming for Ziv-United Artists is an excellent tennis player and belongs to The Seventh Regiment Tennis and The Town Tennis clubs in New York City, and the Los Angeles Tennis Club. His suits are ready-made from Norman Hilton, and he has them especially fitted by Bob Difalco, the head fitter at Chipp.

M. DORLAND DOYLE —A graduate of Andover, sixty-year-old Doyle lives in New York City, where he is in advertising. A member of the Links and the Deepdale Golf Club, of which he is a president, he has his suits made by H. Harris ($225).

ANGIER BIDDLE DUKE —A graduate of St. Paul’s (like his uncle, A. J. Drexel Biddle) and a member of the Racquet & Tennis and Brooks clubs in New York, the Travellers in Paris, and the Jockey in Buenos Aires, the forty-four-year-old former ambassador to El Salvador and Vice-Chairman of the Board of the International Rescue Committee patronizes, as does his uncle, E. Tautz—as well as various tailors in Spain.

AHMET M. ERTEGUN — A jazz authority and president of prospering Atlantic Records, Ertegun was born in Istanbul, Turkey, in 1923 and was educated abroad and at St. John’s College in Annapolis. Dedicated to chic living, he has a chauffeur-driven Rolls-Royce. He buys ready-made suits at J. Press (around $100 each and has them recut for around $50) by Martin Kalaydjian, the legendary valet of the Algonquin Hotel in New York.

DOUGLAS FAIRBANKS, JR. — Fifty-year-old Fairbanks, who once contributed to discriminating (and lamented) Vanity Fair, lives in London, but still retains his American citizenship. He is a member of the Century and Lambs clubs in New York, Buck’s and White’s in London, the Travellers in Paris, and the Metropolitan and the Army & Navy in Washington, D. C. His tailor: Stovel & Mason (48 guineas or $141.12 a suit) in London.

FINIS FARR — A gifted writer, Farr, who lives in Ridgewood, New Jersey, graduated from Princeton in 1926, is a member of the Racquet & Tennis in New York, a customer of Weatherill and of Brooks Brothers ($265 a suit).

ALEXANDER COCHRANE FORBES —At fifty, Forbes, who is extremely handsome, looks little older than he did as a Harvard undergraduate (1928-1932). A graduate of Groton, he was a member of the Porcellian Club, probably the choosiest men’s club in the United States. A resident of Needham, Massachusetts, and a member of the Country Club, Forbes is a trustee for various interests. His tailors: Brooks Brothers and others.

CLARK GABLE — Since his switch to Brooks Brothers custom department shortly after the Second World War, the fifty-nine-year-old actor has become a model of subdued chic.

GEOFFREY M. GATES — Gates, Harvard ’27, lives on Long Island (Oyster Bay), where he is in the antiques business. His tailor: H. Harris.

CARY GRANT — Although Grant, who is fifty-six, favors such abominations as large tie knots and claims to have originated the square-style breast-pocket handerchief, he is so extraordinarily attractive that he looks good in practically anything. He insists upon tight armholes in his suit jackets, finds the most comfortable (and functional) of all underwear to be women’s nylon panties. Something of a maverick as to tailors, he now goes to Quintino (around $225 a suit) in Beverly Hills, California, and, whenever possible, certain of the preposterously low-priced geniuses in Hong Kong.

WALTER M. HALLE — The fifty-five-year-old head of The Halle Brothers Department Store in Cleveland graduated from Princeton, is a member of the Kirtland Country Club, the Chagrin Valley Hunt, the Cleveland Skating, and the Cleveland Athletic clubs, and, in New York, of the Princeton Club. His suits, which are ready-made by Oxxford, cost around $250 each.

ROY HAYNES — The thiry-five-year-old jazz percussionist belongs on any best-dressed list if only because of his taste in selecting clothes that flatter his short stature (five feet, three and a half inches). His suits are custom made (around $125 each) by the Andover Shop in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

ALFRED HERRMANN — This thirty-nine-year-old artist, who does the drawings for, among other things, Tripler’s men’s fashion ads, is an outstanding authority on male apparel. His tailor: Chipp (around $205 a suit).

MILTON HOLDEN — The sixty-six-year-old resident of New York and Palm Beach is a member of the Brook, Racquet & Tennis, and Turf & Field clubs. His tailor: Davies & Son, London.

WILLIAM E. HUTTON — Fifty-three-year-old Hutton, who lives in Old Westbury, Long Island, graduated from Hill School and Harvard, is a member of the Racquet & Tennis, Links, Meadowbrook, and Piping Rock clubs. A senior partner in the brokerage firm of W. E. Hutton & Company, he patronizes Wetzel ($285 a suit).

The late JOHN B. KELLY — was one of the few self-made men on the list. Like his daughter, Princess Grace of Monaco, he was always impeccably dressed. His tailor: Witlin & Gallagher ($265 for a two-piece suit, $10 more for a three-piece) of Philadelphia.

SOLON KELLY III — Young (thirty-nine) and exceedingly attractive, Kelly, who is a partner in a wine and spirits importing firm in New York, belongs to the Union, Brook, Racquet & Tennis, and Southampton clubs. His tailor: Kilgour, French & Stanbury in London.

CHESTER J. LaROCHE — A graduate of Exeter and Yale, where he was prominent in football, this sixty-eight-year-old head of a thriving advertising agency in New York belongs to the Racquet & Tennis Club and presides over the Football Hall of Fame. LaRoche, who turns up at Yale football games in a venerable polo coat and Tyrolean hat, has his suits made by Arthur Rosenberg ($195-210 for a two-piece and $220-235 for a three-piece suit) and Wetzel in New York and Kilgour, French & Stanbury in London.

JOHN McCLAIN — A graduate of Kenyon College, McClain, who is drama critic of the New York Journal-American, belongs to the Brooks and the Racquet & Tennis clubs. His suits are made by Stovel & Mason, London, by Penalver in Madrid ($65 a suit).

JOHN McLEAN — The forty-four-year-old son of celebrated Washington hostess Evalyn Walsh McLean is a member of the Racquet & Tennis Club in New York and the Seminole in Palm Beach. McLean, who is generally referred to as “Jock,” is a creative dresser who helped originate red socks for wear with a dinner suit. He goes to Bernard Weatherill.

ALBERT S. MURPHY — A graduate of Boston Latin School and Harvard, forty-eight-year-old Dr. Murphy is a senior surgeon at St. Elizabeth Hospital in Boston and on the staffs of Mr. Auburn Hospital in Cambridge and the New England Baptist in Boston. He is a member of the American Board of Surgery and the College of Surgeons. His clubs: Charles River Country and Harvard of Boston. His suits are made by the Andover Shop; his accessories come from either Zareh in Boston or Ara in Wellesley.

HENRY T. MORTIMER — A graduate of St. Mark’s School and Harvard, class of 1939, Mortimer is a Wall Street broker, holds membership in the Brooks and the Racquet & Tennis clubs. An extremely fussy dresser (who has his own-designed coat lapel), he insists upon such details as dull-finish bone buttons, skeleton alpaca linings. Tailor: Lord of New York.

IVA PATCÉVITCH — The elegant, silver-haired, fifty-nine-year-old Russian-born head of the Condé Nast Publications has his suits made by Weatherill.

THOMAS PHIPPS — The only Etonian on the list, forty-five-year-old Phipps is one of the few writers in the Racquet & Tennis Club. His tailor: Sandon in London (around $155 a suit, plus import duty).

WALTER PIDGEON — The sixty-two-year-old actor who played A. J. Drexel Biddle’s father in The Happiest Millionaire goes to Dunhill in New York and Domenick Alvaro ($200-$225 a suit) in Beverly Hills, California.

THOMAS MARKOE ROBERTSON — A graduate of Hotchkiss and Yale (class of 1910) and a brother-in-law of A. J. Drexel Biddle, Robertson, an architect, is a member of the exclusive Southampton Club. His tailor: E. Tautz.

JOHN SEABROOK — Forty-three-year-old Seabrook, a member of the frozen-foods family, is a Princeton graduate and a member of The London Coaching Club and the Racquet & Tennis Club in New York, lives on a 1,500-acre farm in New Jersey. His tailor: Bernard Weatherill.

J. BLAN VAN URK — This fifty-eight-year-old graduate of Princeton, where, among other things, he was heavyweight boxing champion as well as something of a dandy in his bowler and covert-cloth topcoat, is the author of the definitive and handsome Story of American Foxhunting. Van Urk belongs to the Royal Dutch Hunt (the Netherlands) and the Grolier clubs and is a Chevalier of the Confréric de la Chaîne des Rôtiseurs. His suits are made by both H. Harris and H. Huntsman & Sons in London.

THOMAS REED VREELAND — A graduate of The Hill and Yale, sixty-one-year-old Vreeland belongs to the Racquet & Tennis, Cloud, and Southampton clubs in this country, Buck’s in London, and the Travellers in Paris. His tailors: E. C. Squires (around $122 for a two-piece, $133 for a three-piece suit) in London and, in New York, Pat Sylvestri, who, notwithstanding his Johnny-come-lateliness, is one of the genuinely gifted members of his profession.

 

[TheFoo]



We're closer to that day than we think.  The price of bespoke suits rises faster than inflation (just like the expense of college tuition) because of Baumol's cost disease (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol's_cost_disease).  The 1996 edition of Flusser's Style and the Man says an A&S suit cost $2000 ($2930 in inflation adjusted dollars). Today that suit is over $5000 excluding VAT.  A. Caraceni suits were $2600 ($3800 inflation adjusted) and Cifonelli $3800 ($5560).  Now A. Caraceni is over $6400 and Cifonelli more than $6700.  So if you're thinking of getting suits, perhaps it's better to get them now than later.  Or you might invest in a time machine and take advantage of the arbitrage opportunities.

That sounds high for today's A&S price. Can someone please confirm?

 

[HighToned]

No that's the right price... A&S starting price for a two pieces is £3,500. (around $5,000).

It's little bit off topic, right now.
Should an admin start we new topic ? Business of bespoke ?

 

[unbelragazzo]

There are other reasons besides Baumol's cost disease that the price of bespoke suits, and in particular, college tuition, has gone up faster than inflation.

 

[dirnelli]

Off topic? Given that French bespoke is among the most expensive, if not THE most expensive in the world, I find it fitting to have side discussions on bespoke prices within this French thread in particular.

Why not in a new thread ? Because this discussion may serve to draw some attention to French bespoke, which has been superbly ignored on SF until this thread started recently. Therefore, a new thread would just allow SF'ers to go on pontificating as usual about the price of SR suits without any awareness of French bespoke, which is even pricier. I say, let this thread-derail serve as an ad for the French bespoke makers, who don't publicize themselves enough online -- but now, their stratospheric price tag will speak loudly for them, as a twisted form of advertisement in the minds of a few SF'ers who love all that glitters.

 

[lasbar]

Especially if the thread is derailed by people with no French bespoke experience at all.

I have English,,French and English and I therefore qualify to give my humble opinion on their differences..

I have 2 Rubinaccis and I like them but the level of details on my Cifonelli is just incredible..

My A&S is the worst one in terms of cut,construction and overall quality...

My Norton and Cifonelli are my favorites..

 

[dirnelli]

Thanks for those comparaisons, it's not often that we get wide scope like that, as many bespoke customers swear by only one tailor, without really benchmarking tailors against eachother.

 

[archetypal_yuppie]



There's something of a hidden value in bespoke.

LOL.

 

[lasbar]



Thanks for those comparaisons, it's not often that we get wide scope like that, as many bespoke customers swear by only one tailor, without really benchmarking tailors against eachother.

There no benchmark just personal preferences...

People swearing by one tailor are just restricting their horizons.

 

[poorsod]



Especially if the thread is derailed by people with no French bespoke experience at all.

I have English,,French and English and I therefore qualify to give my humble opinion on their differences..

I have 2 Rubinaccis and I like them but the level of details on my Cifonelli is just incredible..

My A&S is the worst one in terms of cut,construction and overall quality...

My Norton and Cifonelli are my favorites..

Is your Norton after the takeover by Patrick Grant?

 

[lasbar]



Is your Norton after the takeover by Patrick Grant?

Yes .

I got in and ordered a suit....

Patrick Grant is always very smart and I was impressed with the suit he was wearing...

He was surprised I ordered a suit straight away...

My cutter was a Welsh guy Mr dAVID WARD and he joined afterwards Huntsman...

I do think he left because Patrick Grant was busier developing the Tautz franchise than his bespoke operations..

 

[Kuro]

Interview with Lorenzo (in part 2 he comments about the Parisian cut)

http://dukeanddude.com/blog/interviews/interview-cifonelli-partie-1

http://dukeanddude.com/blog/interviews/interview-cifonelli-partie-2

When is l'hommeRJ going to write about Charvet bespoke?

 

[lasbar]

David has left Huntsman after Roubi Lagrange's take over in 2013 .

My first suit was Pat Murphy..