Free Will (hint: you don't got it)

[MetroStyles]

I am eager for somebody to disprove me without using God in the argument.

Here is why I personally don't believe we have free will. I came up with this when I was 17. Yes, I was an early David Hume, or whichever 18th century philosopher it is that stole these ideas from me.

In the absence of quantum mechanics: Physical objects abide by physical laws. We are physical objects. Our minds are physical objects, though complex ones. Even on an atomic level, every movement or transformation of matter or energy is a result of a scientifically-explainable reaction.

Rephrased: Assuming the world is 5 billion or infinity years old (have your pick), if time froze at this exact second, given the sequence of events that have occurred in those 5 billion years up to this instant, if I unfroze time for one frame, the next frame could be perfectly predicted given the laws that govern matter and energy. The same could be said of any one instance, and put together, this equals determinism.

Sometimes you think about things and feel you are making decisions, but in a very complex way these decision are already made. Your mind was on a path all along to struggle with a concept and hum and haw and waffle and finally make a decision going one way. It feels like free will, but it isn't under the definition here because it was guaranteed to happen that way before you even gave it any thought.

With quantum mechanics: Someone will have to pipe in here as I never took a science class past high school. But either:

a) Randomness occurs on such a submicroscopic level that it does not affect the visible/tangible physical world to which the determinism described above applies to.
b) Randomness does in some ways affect our world, but in a random way. In other words, my or your "willpower" and "thought" has no effect on particles that may behave unpredictably. In fact, it is the other way around. So while before, everything was deterministic, it is now deterministic with a pinch of randomness. Not much better.

In conclusion, regardless of the world being deterministic or random, there is no free will.

Eager to hear thoughts.

 

[CDFS]

I got it; you don't think it exists.

 

[MetroStyles]

Originally Posted by CDFS

I got it; you don't think it exists.

Duh. That is my argument. I am looking for counterarguments.

 

[itsstillmatt]

It's not an argument. It is a thought. There is a difference.

 

[MetroStyles]

Then you should easily be able to swat it away with a real argument. But I'm sure you just don't feel like it because it isn't worth your time. Am I right?

 

[itsstillmatt]

Originally Posted by MetroStyles

Then you should easily be able to swat it away with a real argument. But I'm sure you just don't feel like it because it isn't worth your time. Am I right?
I have no ability to prove that free will exists, but an "argument" that says that since some things are determined, all things are determined, doesn't really need swatting away. It is logically untenable.

 

[Thomas]

Metro, I originally decided to not post in your thread, exerting my free will to not post.

Then I thought about it, and decided that my free will has changed, and I decided to post after all, despite my taciturn tendencies and posting only when I offer substantial viewpoints that advance the conversation.

I think free will exists and we exert our choices in various manners, particularly when we oversome our tendencies or habits. I think it's most noticeable when we have a coin-flip decision between two options between which we are indifferent: while driving, take route A or route B? Chicken or beef?

Where I think free will gets interesting comes when we overcome our ingrained habits. I think we all have some grooves we've worn into our daily lives - some of us more so than others - but when we jump out of the grooves: isn't that free will?

 

[MetroStyles]

Thomas, you are focusing on the practical idea of free will. Yes, we all think we have free will, even me, the skeptic. I still live life as if I have free will. After all, I'm just talking about theory.

While I agree that everything in your post reflects how one should live practically, nothing in it actually touches the theoretical topic at hand. That is, scientifically, what is your defense of free will? More specifically, what in my argument (or "thought" as Matt prefers to define it as), is faulty?

 

[MetroStyles]

Originally Posted by iammatt

I have no ability to prove that free will exists, but an "argument" that says that since some things are determined, all things are determined, doesn't really need swatting away. It is logically untenable.

I am saying all things are determined, not some things. The key logical connector is that our minds are physical objects, albeit extremely complex ones. Perhaps that is the point on which we differ?

 

[Tck13]

I think we kind of have Freewill and, yet, we kind of don't. Ya' know?

 

[MetroStyles]

Jesus, I've never more desperately wanted Manton or Mafoofan to post in my thread, if only to get someone to actually banter with me with some effort. I'll even take...gulp...Conne at this point.

 

[itsstillmatt]

Originally Posted by MetroStyles

More specifically, what in my argument (or "thought" as Matt prefers to define it as), is faulty?

I told you what is wrong with it. You need to start with the premise that everything is determined in order to deduce that people are fully determined, but that is just assuming your conclusion. That is why it is a thought, and not an argument.

 

[CunningSmeagol]

What's more interesting to consider, is that the entirety of time has already exists. I don't mean that philosophically, but rather scientifically, as a consequence of relativity.

 

[MetroStyles]

Originally Posted by iammatt

I told you what is wrong with it. You need to start with the premise that everything is determined in order to deduce that people are fully determined, but that is just assuming your conclusion. That is why it is a thought, and not an argument.

So....without invoking God, what in this world is not determined (non-quantum laws of physics) or not random (quantum physics)? Seriously, just answer that question.

 

[itsstillmatt]

Originally Posted by MetroStyles

So....without invoking God, what in this world is not determined (non-quantum laws of physics) or not random (quantum physics)? Seriously, just answer that question.
Proof by induction??? We don't have any idea, as far as I know, if any living things, humans be damned, are determined.