Discussions about the fashion industry thread

[clee1982]

Hahaha - this is a joke right? I currently make 95% of my collection in India. First prototypes very often come in 100% correct with no changes. It’s the first time I’ve been genuinely happy with product since RL. Our suppliers can handle larger scale if we grow but are ok with us being small right now. The majority of our fabrics are woven by hand. We can do things in India that I’ve never been able to do anywhere, and because we don’t wholesale we can actually make them affordable.

How about say Vietnam/Malaysia as well? I guess the general question is why hasn't more order moved away from China?

Generically speaking (not just clothing) I have always heard China vs. South East Asia/South Asia are not cheapest, but deliver consistent qualities in volume and

1. better vertical supply chain
2. better infrastructure (so not something company can easily control)
3. better for volume (like you supply everyone's kind of volume)

are India just as good in 1 and 3 these days?

edit: speaking of made in Italy quality, how about mostly non hand made suit at say $1~$2k range (Corneliani or Canali)?

I remember they were all machine made, and at least then (as in 2010?), there were someone on the forum saying they were always bring in the latest manufacturing process

 

[jalebi]

Hahaha - this is a joke right? I currently make 95% of my collection in India. First prototypes very often come in 100% correct with no changes. It’s the first time I’ve been genuinely happy with product since RL. Our suppliers can handle larger scale if we grow but are ok with us being small right now. The majority of our fabrics are woven by hand. We can do things in India that I’ve never been able to do anywhere, and because we don’t wholesale we can actually make them affordable.

Not a joke, genuinely interested. Spent a lot of time in the region (I am originally Indian too) and was curious. I imagine in India the production will eventually move to more machine and less by hand as it scales up?

 

[gdl203]

But it’s not imaginary. They’re explaining the math in the margins. They tell you what everything costs and then keystone it (2x). Most traditional wholesale brands take their final first cost, x it 2 and that’s their wholesale cost. Then their wholesale partners multiply that by between 2 and 3x.

The problem with most of these VC-backed DTC brands is that the product usually just isn’t good. The founders often brag that they have no previous experience making what they are trying to sell you, just the hubris that they can “do it better.”

What is the difference in margin layering structure between

• Everlane orders sweater from factory ABC in China (which they don’t own and is taking their own production margin), imports it into the US, adds their margin and sells it directly to the final consumer
• No Man Walks Alone orders sweater from factory GRP in Italy (which they don’t own and is taking their own production margin), imports it into the US, adds their margin and sells it directly to the final consumer

Are we a DTC company? Is that random store in Minneapolis that buys directly from an Italian maker a DTC company?

The real difference is not in the structure of the chain as much as it is in the actual costs. Lower labor costs, lower capital costs, lower material costs, higher quantities and economies of scale as pointed @dieworkwear. The chain looks the same.

Your experience working for brands that don’t own their production is affecting how you think about this, but “slow fashion” menswear retailers like us and tons of other shops buy directly from factories and there is no “wholesale” layer. There was once a time where you had distributors and wholesalers importing clothes and selling to retailers but that step has been disintermediated a long time ago. Retailers can buy directly from makers, there’s no intermediary to “cut”. It’s a big lie that is used to cater to that weird “cut the middleman” sentiment which reminds me of “drain the swamp” in its mix of catchiness and emptiness. That middleman often doesn’t exist.

Separately, I appreciate your take on manufacturing quality but is it possible that your specific experience with one specific Italian brand and their manufacturing partners has a strong impact on your perception. We work with makers in Italy that have incredibly high manufacturing quality and QC - e.g. Inglese and Rota are two small family-owned businesses that delivery MTM garments that measure spot on all the time.

The manufacturing and QC problems we experienced with Eidos (and that we put up with because we love you, man) where several standard deviations from what we’re used to with other Italian makers. It was verging on absurd, was absolutely the worst QC from our 50+ brands, and certainly was not something we experience normally.

 

[clee1982]

guess the question is how can Isaia f* it up that much. Though I'm not sure Rota/GI is the comparison, thought we're talking about <$150 chino made in whatever you want quantity

 

[Coffandcig]

I usually buy my cheaper casual clothes on sale or go really cheap like Gap jeans and shorts or t shirts and underwear from Target. Nicer stuff like my Corthay or bespoke John Lobb shoes I just pay full price. Only bespoke item I get on sale are my dress shirts when my shirt maker has a 15% off during Father's Day weekend.

Oh the magnanimity!

 

[beargonefishing]

I usually buy my cheaper casual clothes on sale or go really cheap like Gap jeans and shorts or t shirts and underwear from Target. Nicer stuff like my Corthay or bespoke John Lobb shoes I just pay full price. Only bespoke item I get on sale are my dress shirts when my shirt maker has a 15% off during Father's Day weekend.

I wish I could buy cheap tshirts, or rather I can but OTR tshirts don't fit me. I'm just too tall. Same goes for most dress shirts.

 

[clee1982]

I only really spend money on tailoring and dress shoes, have two jeans (one rrl, on jcrew b&w), then the rest is "cheap stuff" (99% uniqulo?)

my wife think I either dress as all dec out or homeless (10 year old t-shirt/sweatshirt that the cat tear multiple hole through it), nothing in between

 

[NickPollica]

What is the difference in margin layering structure between

• Everlane orders sweater from factory ABC in China (which they don’t own and is taking their own production margin), imports it into the US, adds their margin and sells it directly to the final consumer
• No Man Walks Alone orders sweater from factory GRP in Italy (which they don’t own and is taking their own production margin), imports it into the US, adds their margin and sells it directly to the final consumer

Are we a DTC company? Is that random store in Minneapolis that buys directly from an Italian maker a DTC company?

The real difference is not in the structure of the chain as much as it is in the actual costs. Lower labor costs, lower capital costs, lower material costs, higher quantities and economies of scale as pointed @dieworkwear. The chain looks the same.

Your experience working for brands that don’t own their production is affecting how you think about this, but “slow fashion” menswear retailers like us and tons of other shops buy directly from factories and there is no “wholesale” layer. There was once a time where you had distributors and wholesalers importing clothes and selling to retailers but that step has been disintermediated a long time ago. Retailers can buy directly from makers, there’s no intermediary to “cut”. It’s a big lie that is used to cater to that weird “cut the middleman” sentiment which reminds me of “drain the swamp” in its mix of catchiness and emptiness. That middleman often doesn’t exist.

Separately, I appreciate your take on manufacturing quality but is it possible that your specific experience with one specific Italian brand and their manufacturing partners has a strong impact on your perception. We work with makers in Italy that have incredibly high manufacturing quality and QC - e.g. Inglese and Rota are two small family-owned businesses that delivery MTM garments that measure spot on all the time.

The manufacturing and QC problems we experienced with Eidos (and that we put up with because we love you, man) where several standard deviations from what we’re used to with other Italian makers. It was verging on absurd, was absolutely the worst QC from our 50+ brands, and certainly was not something we experience normally.

I think that what you are doing, as opposed to what happens in the majority of the traditional wholesale market are two largely different approaches. Its not a big lie. Most "fashion" brands that stores like Totokaelo sell are not what you describe. These are designers that don't own their own production. These brands often have wholesale agents, showrooms, etc. There are very much middle men and the majority of the market is this. The care and effort you take to work with companies that own their own production is very much the minority.

As for quality and QC in Italy, Rota and Inglese seem to fall more into the artisan category. They aren't industrialized companies and they make a very specific product (tailored garments with very little post construction finishing). There are lots of small, family run operations where you can make nice, dry clean only shirts, trousers and jackets in Italy. But I challenge you to find someone that can make a chino you can hot wash and tumble dry there without it shrinking. I use pants as an example because I tried for 5 years to find a vendor that could reliably make the type of pants J. Crew regularly sells for under $100.. I met with countless factories and nearly all of them turned us down because the designs were "too complicated" or "difficult to produce." "How about a basic 5 pocket or a stretch chino?" Much of this was at Pitti meeting vendors and trying to source things on my own. My impressions and observations have little to do with Isaia and much more to do with industrialized manufacturing in Italy as a whole.

 

[clee1982]

well I guess then why hasn't more order moved from China to India? Presumably, if they can scale, then cost is I assume cheaper in India, unless infrastructure is really a big bottle neck (harder to imagine for clothe)

 

[NickPollica]

well I guess then why hasn't more order moved from China to India? Presumably, if they can scale, then cost is I assume cheaper in India, unless infrastructure is really a big bottle neck (harder to imagine for clothe)

There is a lot of great production already happening in India. J. Crew And RL have been making woven cotton pieces in there for ages.

 

[Texasmade]

I wish I could buy cheap tshirts, or rather I can but OTR tshirts don't fit me. I'm just too tall. Same goes for most dress shirts.

One of the few benefits of being about average height!

Just start going with bespoke dress shirts. Hamilton does trunk shows in Dallas which is who I use. They typically run about $300 a shirt with a minimum order of 5 for a first time customer.

 

[clee1982]

yup, I have definitely heard a lot about knits in India, but somehow it's all seem to be knit centric (because it's more manual labor driven?)

 

[beargonefishing]

One of the few benefits of being about average height!

Just start going with bespoke dress shirts. Hamilton does trunk shows in Dallas which is who I use. They typically run about $300 a shirt with a minimum order of 5 for a first time customer.

I've been using Mytailor for dress shirts for ~8 years, and started using Todd Shelton a little over a year ago for t-shirts because I can get 2" added (this is teed up).

 

[IJReilly]

I think that what you are doing, as opposed to what happens in the majority of the traditional wholesale market are two largely different approaches. Its not a big lie. Most "fashion" brands that stores like Totokaelo sell are not what you describe. These are designers that don't own their own production. These brands often have wholesale agents, showrooms, etc. There are very much middle men and the majority of the market is this. The care and effort you take to work with companies that own their own production is very much the minority.

As for quality and QC in Italy, Rota and Inglese seem to fall more into the artisan category. They aren't industrialized companies and they make a very specific product (tailored garments with very little post construction finishing). There are lots of small, family run operations where you can make nice, dry clean only shirts, trousers and jackets in Italy. But I challenge you to find someone that can make a chino you can hot wash and tumble dry there without it shrinking. I use pants as an example because I tried for 5 years to find a vendor that could reliably make the type of pants J. Crew regularly sells for under $100.. I met with countless factories and nearly all of them turned us down because the designs were "too complicated" or "difficult to produce." "How about a basic 5 pocket or a stretch chino?" Much of this was at Pitti meeting vendors and trying to source things on my own. My impressions and observations have little to do with Isaia and much more to do with industrialized manufacturing in Italy as a whole.

ok now I must hear your take on Incotex.

 

[Mariokartfever]

ok now I must hear your take on Incotex.

Second this!