Brazilian Jiu Jitsu: Royce Gracie vs. Kung Fu master

[Tokyo Slim]

Originally Posted by Soph

Funny since I am proclaiming that no single martial art is correct.Yet I do believe that a MMA is greater than Kung Fu in a real world setting. I think lack of reading comprehesion and oversimplying another's argument with grammar school comebacks solidifies a certain naivete. Now if you say Kung Fu is greater than a MMA than I guess we are in disagreement.
Kung Fu is a part of MMA... Your original post didn't mention MMA at all, only Brazilian Jiu Jitsu as being better than Kung Fu. Which is essentially unprovable. I have not adapted my position at all. If anything, by bringing MMA into it, you are changing your argument. You cannot say that you can prove one solo martial art is better than another in a street fight, when you cannot rigidly use either art in a real street fight. Someone who tries using only BJJ in a street fight will get knocked out just as fast as someone who just uses Kung Fu. I still maintain that speed, suprise, and psychology are superior to any formal martial arts training in a street fight. Someone who studies a variety of martial arts, and utilizes the most effective techniques available (like Bruce Lee, who you summarily discounted earlier) is probably going to be better equipped in a real world fight than someone who is trained in only one style. This is where we agree.

 

[Soph]

Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim

Kung Fu is a part of MMA... Your original post didn't mention MMA at all, only Brazilian Jiu Jitsu as being better than Kung Fu. Which is essentially unprovable.

Someone who studies a variety of martial arts, and utilizes the most effective techniques available (like Bruce Lee, who you summarily discounted earlier) is probably going to be better equipped in a real world fight than someone who is trained in only one style. This is where we agree.

---
1. I do think Gracie's techniques are better than PURE kung fu a majority. Fine we disagree. And I do believe a Kung Fu master could clock Gracie, but not a majority.

2. What the hell, I NEVER discounted Bruce Lee. I said he was the freaking father of MMA! That he seeks what works over all whether that be akido, fencing or ball room dancing. Lee used boxing techniques. I wish I knew 1/100 th of what he knew and applied.

3. I agree, a majority of the time, an experienced MMA has the greatest chance of victory on average as Hughes is an example. Even Hughes get beats.

I think we both agree on alot, I apologize if I was overly simplistic in my intial post. Please accept my humble apologies for any rantings/insults.

 

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Soph

I am not saying nor have I said anything is 100%. To assume this is ridiculous.
well it seems that three of us - indeed three of us who not unfamiliar newbies to the site and three of us who have considerable fight training - read it that way.

It is safe to assume that 'what produces results a majority of the time' is a prudent pursuit based on your personal goals and objectives.

well - as mentioned above - I probably wouldnt go looking at BJJ as your panacea for real world effectiveness on the basis of early MMA footage. IMO you would be better off boxing - or if you have the time, skill and motivation, combining boxing and freestyle wrestling.

 

[Tokyo Slim]

I prefer practicing kicking flies off a peice of hanging flypaper without moving the paper.

That or standing in the middle of a river and knocking out fish by punching them without making a splash.

 

[Brian SD]

Champion Kung Fu fighters don't get into back stances and crane stances. That's in the movies. There are lots of mastered eastern martial artists out there who could surely stomp on BJJ fighters but they wouldn't only do traditional movements.

I'm waiting to see how Serkan Yilmaz fares in MMA - it's my understanding that he's going to start up with Pride? He was a WTF (or ITF) champ. So it would change people's minds a bit i'm sure if he does well as a Tae Kwon Do student.

 

[globetrotter]

soph,

I am not sure that it would be accurate to say bruce lee was the father of mma - I think that historically, great masters have mixed up and sought out from other styles, and mixed and matched, and then, what they put together gets solidified and, over time, becomes the stuff of a mcdojo. look at the writtings of musashi - he is, essentially, talking mma in the 17th century, and he wasn't the first either.

 

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Brian SD

I'm waiting to see how Serkan Yilmaz fares in MMA - it's my understanding that he's going to start up with Pride? He was a WTF (or ITF) champ. So it would change people's minds a bit i'm sure if he does well as a Tae Kwon Do student.
I'm leaning towards one of two things happening with him. 1. forgetting almost everything he ever learned in TKD school, and then having a chance or 2. getting really really hurt. TKD relies far too much on kicks, and flying kicks just wont fly in MMA

 

[LA Guy]

Heheheh.

Just don't swing ********* my way, dude.

Originally Posted by Soph

Funny since I am proclaiming that no single martial art is correct.Yet I do believe that a MMA is greater than Kung Fu in a real world setting. I think lack of reading comprehesion and oversimplying another's argument with grammar school comebacks solidifies a certain naivete.

Now if you say Kung Fu is greater than a MMA than I guess we are in disagreement.

You don't understand what I'm saying by bringing up a simplebat sarcasm? WTH?

When two equally close and effective master's of technique (Hughes/Gracie-although people will debate this also, but they are both excelllent) are pared against one another, it is obvious that the advantage of the more physically conditioned and stronger opponent gives him a distinct advantage all things being close to equal.

I am not saying nor have I said anything is 100%. To assume this is ridiculous.
It is safe to assume that 'what produces results a majority of the time' is a prudent pursuit based on your personal goals and objectives.

I think TS and I are now in agreement as he is adapting his previous Kung Fu stance to apply other forms(MMA) over pure kung fu as a better technique.

Yes, yes, real world I pull out a gun shoot you in the head blah blah blah exceptions.

Peace, live long and prosper

 

[LA Guy]

Originally Posted by m@T

I'm leaning towards one of two things happening with him.

1. forgetting almost everything he ever learned in TKD school, and then having a chance

or

2. getting really really hurt.

TKD relies far too much on kicks, and flying kicks just wont fly in MMA

Maybe you're right, but both Freestyle and Muy Thai rules fighters seem to get a lot of use out of leg kicks, and plenty of knockouts come courtesy of a roundhouse to the head in late rounds, when the hands starting dropping. Also, MMA fighters these days seem to be pretty adept at staying on their feet, after a period of dominancy by ground fighters. I'm pretty interested in seeing whether Yilmaz will be able to learn to defend effectively and use his strengths in the MMA arena.

 

[Matt]

Originally Posted by LA Guy

Maybe you're right, but both Freestyle and Muy Thai rules fighters seem to get a lot of use out of leg kicks,
I wouldnt call leg kicks a TKD technique - theyre pretty generic sure, but if we want to pigeonhole them (and maybe we dont) - Id call them a Thai technique, which fits my 'forget whatever the TKD teacher taught him theory. When it comes to kicking guys of horses, nothing can beat it though

and plenty of knockouts come courtesy of a roundhouse to the head in late rounds, when the hands starting dropping.

now this I would call a TKD technique, Im just not really betting on him lasting that long. If he does, well then years of TKD jumping is certainly in his favor - assuming of course that in these late stages of the fight when the other guy is worn out, he still has it in him to get his leg up.

 

[johnapril]

That looked painful. What a waste of time.

 

[mizanation]

here we go again.

to the person who said that an armbar includes throwing your back to the ground, you did not learn BJJ. an armbar is done with controlled back extension, not ballistic movement.

to the person who is waiting on taekwondo to do well in pride. well, sorry to burst your bubble but taekwondo has a horrible record in MMA. even in K-1, where the rules should favor TKD more, TKD has suffered bubble-bursting defeats.

style-vs-style matches has been going on in japan for a long time. the arguments that we are having now do not happen in japan because the results are pretty self-apparent.

 

[chorse123]

There's a very good book coming out in January by a guy who trained in Muay Thai at Fairtex in Bangkok, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu with Brazilian Top Team in Rio, boxing with Virgil Hunter and Andre Ward in Oakland, MMA with Pat Miletich in Iowa, and more.

It's very cool. Called A FIGHTER'S HEART, author is Sam Sheridan.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/087...e=UTF8&s=books

 

[someoneNew]

Originally Posted by Soph

MMA, Gracie showed that grappling and submission was superior to the more traditional martial arts in real world fightning scenarios. However, Hughes has improved it all to another level.

Brazilian jui jitsu was dominant maybe up until 10 years ago when Royce showed it to the world. Ever since it's all about the "well rounded fighter" - the ones who are well versed in stand-up, grappling, and wrestling now are the kings of the hill.

 

[bigbadbuff]

IMHO, Muay Thai/boxing and wrestling make the most sense to learn for self defense, followed closely by JJ.