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Brazilian Jiu Jitsu: Royce Gracie vs. Kung Fu master

Discussion in 'Social Life, Food & Drink, Travel' started by Soph, Aug 27, 2006.

  1. globetrotter

    globetrotter Senior member

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    soph,

    I am not sure that it would be accurate to say bruce lee was the father of mma - I think that historically, great masters have mixed up and sought out from other styles, and mixed and matched, and then, what they put together gets solidified and, over time, becomes the stuff of a mcdojo. look at the writtings of musashi - he is, essentially, talking mma in the 17th century, and he wasn't the first either.
     
  2. Matt

    Matt Senior member

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    I'm waiting to see how Serkan Yilmaz fares in MMA - it's my understanding that he's going to start up with Pride? He was a WTF (or ITF) champ. So it would change people's minds a bit i'm sure if he does well as a Tae Kwon Do student.
    I'm leaning towards one of two things happening with him. 1. forgetting almost everything he ever learned in TKD school, and then having a chance or 2. getting really really hurt. TKD relies far too much on kicks, and flying kicks just wont fly in MMA
     
  3. LA Guy

    LA Guy Opposite Santa Staff Member Admin Moderator

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    Heheheh. [​IMG]

    Just don't swing your dick my way, dude.

    Funny since I am proclaiming that no single martial art is correct.Yet I do believe that a MMA is greater than Kung Fu in a real world setting. I think lack of reading comprehesion and oversimplying another's argument with grammar school comebacks solidifies a certain naivete.

    Now if you say Kung Fu is greater than a MMA than I guess we are in disagreement.

    You don't understand what I'm saying by bringing up a simplebat sarcasm? WTH?

    When two equally close and effective master's of technique (Hughes/Gracie-although people will debate this also, but they are both excelllent) are pared against one another, it is obvious that the advantage of the more physically conditioned and stronger opponent gives him a distinct advantage all things being close to equal.[​IMG]

    I am not saying nor have I said anything is 100%. To assume this is ridiculous.
    It is safe to assume that 'what produces results a majority of the time' is a prudent pursuit based on your personal goals and objectives.

    I think TS and I are now in agreement as he is adapting his previous Kung Fu stance to apply other forms(MMA) over pure kung fu as a better technique.

    Yes, yes, real world I pull out a gun shoot you in the head blah blah blah exceptions.

    Peace, live long and prosper[​IMG]
     
  4. LA Guy

    LA Guy Opposite Santa Staff Member Admin Moderator

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    I'm leaning towards one of two things happening with him.

    1. forgetting almost everything he ever learned in TKD school, and then having a chance

    or

    2. getting really really hurt.

    TKD relies far too much on kicks, and flying kicks just wont fly in MMA


    Maybe you're right, but both Freestyle and Muy Thai rules fighters seem to get a lot of use out of leg kicks, and plenty of knockouts come courtesy of a roundhouse to the head in late rounds, when the hands starting dropping. Also, MMA fighters these days seem to be pretty adept at staying on their feet, after a period of dominancy by ground fighters. I'm pretty interested in seeing whether Yilmaz will be able to learn to defend effectively and use his strengths in the MMA arena.
     
  5. Matt

    Matt Senior member

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    Maybe you're right, but both Freestyle and Muy Thai rules fighters seem to get a lot of use out of leg kicks,
    I wouldnt call leg kicks a TKD technique - theyre pretty generic sure, but if we want to pigeonhole them (and maybe we dont) - Id call them a Thai technique, which fits my 'forget whatever the TKD teacher taught him theory. When it comes to kicking guys of horses, nothing can beat it though [​IMG]
    now this I would call a TKD technique, Im just not really betting on him lasting that long. If he does, well then years of TKD jumping is certainly in his favor - assuming of course that in these late stages of the fight when the other guy is worn out, he still has it in him to get his leg up.
     
  6. johnapril

    johnapril Senior member

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    That looked painful. What a waste of time.
     
  7. mizanation

    mizanation Senior member

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    here we go again.

    to the person who said that an armbar includes throwing your back to the ground, you did not learn BJJ. an armbar is done with controlled back extension, not ballistic movement.

    to the person who is waiting on taekwondo to do well in pride. well, sorry to burst your bubble but taekwondo has a horrible record in MMA. even in K-1, where the rules should favor TKD more, TKD has suffered bubble-bursting defeats.

    style-vs-style matches has been going on in japan for a long time. the arguments that we are having now do not happen in japan because the results are pretty self-apparent.
     
  8. chorse123

    chorse123 Senior member

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    There's a very good book coming out in January by a guy who trained in Muay Thai at Fairtex in Bangkok, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu with Brazilian Top Team in Rio, boxing with Virgil Hunter and Andre Ward in Oakland, MMA with Pat Miletich in Iowa, and more.

    It's very cool. Called A FIGHTER'S HEART, author is Sam Sheridan.

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/087...e=UTF8&s=books
     
  9. someoneNew

    someoneNew Senior member

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    MMA, Gracie showed that grappling and submission was superior to the more traditional martial arts in real world fightning scenarios. However, Hughes has improved it all to another level.

    Brazilian jui jitsu was dominant maybe up until 10 years ago when Royce showed it to the world. Ever since it's all about the "well rounded fighter" - the ones who are well versed in stand-up, grappling, and wrestling now are the kings of the hill.
     
  10. bigbadbuff

    bigbadbuff Senior member

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    IMHO, Muay Thai/boxing and wrestling make the most sense to learn for self defense, followed closely by JJ.
     
  11. Gradstudent78

    Gradstudent78 Senior member

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    If all you want out of what your learning is self defense then your probably better off taking an actual course geared at self defense. If you want fitness, health, or sports benefits as well then you should take something else based on your individual needs and tastes.
     
  12. LA Guy

    LA Guy Opposite Santa Staff Member Admin Moderator

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    If all you want out of what your learning is self defense then your probably better off taking an actual course geared at self defense. If you want fitness, health, or sports benefits as well then you should take something else based on your individual needs and tastes.

    I agree with this completely. However, I've taught self-defense classes, and must stress that what is taught are basic (and effective) forms to defend oneself against aggressors who do not expect you to defend yourself vigorously (it's worth mentioning that most of the students in these classes are female.) These classes are not designed to teach you how to fight, although, of course, lots of the techniques are derived from martial arts techniques.
     
  13. Largo

    Largo Senior member

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    As reluctant as I am to jump into the ring with this sort of debate, I personally believe there's a huge school of difference between "a fight" and MMA-style battles. In a fight there isn't typically a lot of technical considerations involved. As much as Mizanation would inform us that Kung-Fu sucks, I can speak from first-hand experience that it's not in any way an ineffective defense in a fight-assuming you were taught efficiently. MMA however, is a totally different beast.

    Having already said that I endorse Kung-Fu as a self-defense discipline. If you take it into a martial art vs. martial art scenario, then no-it's not the best path one could take, but if it's taught properly, then you should be able to handle yourself out in the world in more "casual" circumstances.

    edit: Disclaimer-my first hand experience consists of watching other people. [​IMG]
     
  14. LA Guy

    LA Guy Opposite Santa Staff Member Admin Moderator

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    As reluctant as I am to jump into the ring with this sort of debate ...

    Ah, but you did, and now you too are an internet ninja [​IMG]
     
  15. Largo

    Largo Senior member

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    Ah, but you did, and now you too are an internet ninja [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Oh no! Now what do I do?!?
     
  16. Tokyo Slim

    Tokyo Slim Senior member

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    [​IMG]

    Oh no! Now what do I do?!?


    I would reccomend a broadband smoke bomb, then a super jump into a digital tree. Don't forget to fling a few cyber-shiruken as a parting gift!
     
  17. Matt

    Matt Senior member

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    I'LL KICK ALL YOUR ASSES!!!

    (as long as we dont have to leave the internet to have the fight...gulp...its scary out there)
     
  18. arenn

    arenn Well-Known Member

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    Brazilian jui jitsu was dominant maybe up until 10 years ago when Royce showed it to the world. Ever since it's all about the "well rounded fighter" - the ones who are well versed in stand-up, grappling, and wrestling now are the kings of the hill.

    My friend who is a Brazillian jiu-jitsu nut and personally knows several of the Gracies tells me that most of them in fact "cross-train" in other disciplines like boxing.
     
  19. Brian SD

    Brian SD Senior member

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    My friend who is a Brazillian jiu-jitsu nut and personally knows several of the Gracies tells me that most of them in fact "cross-train" in other disciplines like boxing.
    That's the problem that pretty much everyone overlooks when it comes to this argument... No good fighter, be a striking martial art or a wrestling one, is going to be completely one-sided in their training. I know for sure that if I wanted to be a ring-fighter I wouldn't restrict my training to only Muay Thai. You need to be an excellent fighter all around to do any good. That said, Wing Chun, which is the entire basis for Bruce Lee's martial arts, is a form of Kung Fu and involves takedowns and general combat counters. I wouldn't say that it differs greatly from Judo in it's effectiveness. Also that said, I find myself much more interested in the striking martial arts, because I think it's more athletic and fun.
     
  20. Brian SD

    Brian SD Senior member

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    Have you seen Serkan Yilmaz fight? The man is an animal, and he has done incredibly well in K-1.
     

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