Brazilian Jiu Jitsu: Royce Gracie vs. Kung Fu master

[Soph]

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu: Royce Gracie vs. Kung Fu master



--Proof again, that Karate, Kwon Do, Kung fu are inferior in the real world to other forms.

 

[Tokyo Slim]

Originally Posted by Soph

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu: Royce Gracie vs. Kung Fu master --Proof again, that Karate, Kwon Do, Kung fu are inferior in the real world to other forms.
This was neither a "real world" fight, nor a "kung fu master". At least, I'm not going to take YouTube's or his word for it. Lets see Gracie v.s. Bruce Lee. I'm not sure exactly what this is supposed to prove. That being said, I'm sure Royce Gracie can win a street fight with 90% of lesser trained unarmed combatants. Then again, anyone at the top 1% of their martial art's respective skill level should be able to. Thats the point.

 

[Soph]

Lee used street fighting tech, so I wouldn't consider him pure kung fu in and of itself, Lee was aware that kung fu by itself was not a complete real world form. Jeet Kune Do, Lee's system was all about the freedom from the useless and the acceptance of 'what produced results" and was a combination of different styles in and in many ways the father of MMA.

Matt Hughes demonstrating how superior condition/strength,size, with technique defeats even the best of pure technique.



MMA, Gracie showed that grappling and submission was superior to the more traditional martial arts in real world fightning scenarios. However, Hughes has improved it all to another level.

 

[Tokyo Slim]

Originally Posted by Soph

Lee used street fighting tech, so I wouldn't consider him pure kung fu in and of itself, Lee was aware that kung fu by itself was not a complete real world form. Matt Hughes demonstrating how superior condition/strength,size, with technique defeats even the best of pure technique.
I think that you are sort of confused as to what a "real world" fight is. Someone trained in boxing won't come up and touch fists with you if you try to fight them in a bar. They don't stop fighting after three minutes. Likewise if you go up to Jet Li in a bar and threaten his life, don't expect a 30 second stretching demonstration of long fist, or eagle talon kata. He will most likely punch you in the throat. and break your kneecaps. Or he'll take your legs out from under you and punch you in the face until you are unconcious. Then he will most likely call an ambulance, because he is a nice guy. MMA, while the closest of the artificial competitive fighting schools to a real fight, it is not a "real fight". So don't make the mistake of underestimating anyone who has been trained in anything for a long period of time. Most one on one real world fights last less than a minute, and I'd say that psychology and surprise are more effective than Jiu Jitsu. I've never been in a fight where the other person and I stood in a big open area circling each other dramatically and I waited for him to rush up and try and get me on the ground. If you find yourself in that situation, you've probably done a whole series of things wrong up to that point and most likely are about to get your ass kicked by half a dozen guys. Whether you know Jiu Jitsu or not, if you go around looking for a fight, sooner or later someone is going to beat you up. Grappling is effective, and occasionally very useful, but not the be all and end all of fighting. The technique is the same in any street fight, knock out, kill, run or make your opponent run. There are only a couple ways to do that, run, hit them, kick them, choke them, or grapple them. If you assume that Kung Fu only teaches people how to hit people while imitating a snake or a crane, then you 've probably never been in a fight. Anyone who wants a free demonstration is more than welcome to fly up to Seattle. I'll teach you the art of fighting without fighting.

 

[Soph]

Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim

I think that you are sort of confused as to what a "real world" fight is. Someone trained in boxing won't come up and touch fists with you if you try to fight them in a bar. They don't stop fighting after three minutes. Likewise if you go up to Jet Li in a bar and threaten his life, don't expect a 30 second stretching demonstration of long fist, or eagle talon kata. He will most likely punch you in the throat. and break your kneecaps. Or he'll take your legs out from under you and punch you in the face until you are unconcious. Then he will most likely call an ambulance, because he is a nice guy. MMA, while the closest of the artificial competitive fighting schools to a real fight, it is not. So don't make the mistake of underestimating anyone who has been trained in anything for a long period of time. Most real world fights last less than a minute. Grappling is effective, but not the be all and end all of fighting.

The technique is the same in any street fight, knock out, kill, run or make your opponent run. There are only a couple ways to do that, run, hit them, kick them, choke them, or grapple them. If you assume that Kung Fu only teaches people how to hit people while imitating a snake or a crane, then you 've probably never been in a fight. Anyone who wants a free demonstration is more than welcome to fly up to Seattle.

----No where did I say Kung Fu "only teaches people how to hit people while imitating a snake or a crane, then you 've probably never been in a fight" Using ridiculous over the top claims not made by another is usually a very poor way to back one's claims

But the better question is how your Kung Fu would do against a foe such as Matt Hughes. I put my money on Hughes.

As he'll be quite aware of your throat strikes, etc. taught to cripple unknowing common folk

 

[Tokyo Slim]

Originally Posted by Soph

----No where did I say Kung Fu "only teaches people how to hit people while imitating a snake or a crane, then you 've probably never been in a fight" Using ridiculous over the top claims not made by another is usually a very poor way to back one's claims But the better question is how your Kung Fu would do against a foe such as Matt Hughes. I put my money on Hughes.

As he'll be quite aware of your throat strikes, etc. taught to cripple unknowing common folk
Ok, so you refute my arguement that your generalizing about martial arts is bias based and uneducated, and then go right ahead and ignorantly generalize what you think you know about Kung Fu. A good throat strike will cripple anyone. Just like an arm bar and break in Jiu Jitsu will make it harder for your opponent to hit you. You don't have to be an ignorant bumpkin to be hit in the throat any more than you do to be tackled by a jiu jitsu practitioner. Expecting probabable attacks is a matter of educated guessing, and blocking it or getting away from it depends on your speed and timing. But it works both ways. And where does it say that Kung Fu practitioners aren't as trained in grappling and striking as a jiu jitsu practitioner? Jiu Jitsu itself is a direct derivitave of Chin Na grappling. You are probably right that Matt Hughes would beat me in a street fight, but I would never fight him unless I was sure he was going to kill me anyways. The first rule of fighting is that you never engage in one you aren't sure you will win.

 

[Violinist]

how does Kraav Magga or whatever rate in this whole fighting thing? I've been thinking it could be fun. In the few times I've been in street fights since being a school boy (when it was like every day), I just punched them first and I won...

 

[Tokyo Slim]

Originally Posted by Violinist

how does Kraav Magga or whatever rate in this whole fighting thing? I've been thinking it could be fun. In the few times I've been in street fights since being a school boy (when it was like every day), I just punched them first and I won...

Quite a few threads on this already. Krav seems to be pretty well respected.

 

[Matt]

Now I am a big fan of BJJ, however I have two major problems with people who excessively sing the praises of its 'real world' effectiveness.

Now Ive been to the real world a couple of times - although I damn sure dont live in it. Problem number 1...the ground is not a mat. So when your style depends on being down there, it involves you rolling around on bitumen, curbs, broken glass, rocks, whatever. This is not ideal. Lets pick on probably the first thing I learned when I trained BJJ - an arm bar. So you mount, swing a leg over the opponent, pull arm to chest, swing around, throw yourself backwards, raise hips. Now throwing yourself backwards is fine on a mat, but I damn sure dont want to be doing that on a street and beating my own head against the kerb.

Problem number 2 - more than any other style, BJJ assumes that your opponent has no friends. No style will help you against multiple attackers (no matter what the teacher tells you), but BJJ means you take yourself out of the game. You lock yourself up against the other guy, put yourself where your movement range is limited, and his buddies are free to kick you in the head to their hearts content.

As I said, I like BJJ - a lot. I wish I had trained in it longer, but it is not the be all and end all. It was dazzlingly effective in early MMA - and has been getting less so ever since, as the western styles of fighting have interestingly come to provenance, but these early successes forever warped the way its proponents talked about it.

 

[LA Guy]

Originally Posted by Soph

...how superior condition/strength,size, with technique defeats even the best of pure technique.


You think

In other news, a martial arts practitioner with a bat opens up a can of whup ass on a bigger, stronger, more skilled martial arts practitioner without a bat

 

[Matt]

Originally Posted by LA Guy

You think

In other news, a martial arts practitioner with a bat opens up a can of whup ass on a bigger, stronger, more skilled martial arts practitioner without a bat

so im gonna take that violin at beat your ass with it *****

 

[LA Guy]

Originally Posted by m@T

Now throwing yourself backwards is fine on a mat, but I damn sure dont want to be doing that on a street and beating my own head against the kerb.

Heheheh. So, that explains your face

 

[LA Guy]

All joking aside, I agree with Matt. I think that overconfidence in the effectiveness of any martial art in these often mentioned "real life" fights betrays a certain naivete.

 

[Violinist]

Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim

Quite a few threads on this already. Krav seems to be pretty well respected.

well excuse me... but I couldn't find any with the search function.

 

[Soph]

Originally Posted by LA Guy

All joking aside, I agree with Matt. I think that overconfidence in the effectiveness of any martial art in these often mentioned "real life" fights betrays a certain naivete.

Funny since I am proclaiming that no single martial art is correct.Yet I do believe that a MMA is greater than Kung Fu in a real world setting. I think lack of reading comprehesion and oversimplying another's argument with grammar school comebacks solidifies a certain naivete.

Now if you say Kung Fu is greater than a MMA than I guess we are in disagreement.

You don't understand what I'm saying by bringing up a simplebat sarcasm? WTH?

When two equally close and effective master's of technique (Hughes/Gracie-although people will debate this also, but they are both excelllent) are pared against one another, it is obvious that the advantage of the more physically conditioned and stronger opponent gives him a distinct advantage all things being close to equal.

I am not saying nor have I said anything is 100%. To assume this is ridiculous.
It is safe to assume that 'what produces results a majority of the time' is a prudent pursuit based on your personal goals and objectives.

I think TS and I are now in agreement as he is adapting his previous Kung Fu stance to apply other forms(MMA) over pure kung fu as a better technique.

Yes, yes, real world I pull out a gun shoot you in the head blah blah blah exceptions.

Peace, live long and prosper