Shoulder shape/width

Not to pick a fight, Tomasso, but where's the poor fit in Ed's clothing?

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't see where Ed's jacket doesn't fit.
This looks normal to me as it is a Napolitanean shoulder ( no padding ) jacket.

This picture posted by Manton do looks badly fitted IMO, you could tell his real shoulder ends where the arrow is and the shoulder extends past that point... maybe it is just the way he is holding the Camera.

Here some shoulders for you to critizise

Originally Posted by Tomasso

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Do you really think that if by chance I have poorly fitted clothing that it would in some way mitigate your poorly fitted clothing.

A real gem, even by your standards.

No, I think what ed is saying is that it's a bit rich for Internet cowboys to pick every possible nit of every photo they see when they don't have the balls to post their own stuff to show how it's supposed to be done; or, when they do muster up the courage, they prefer to post their stuff on hangers, or even laying flat on a table. Especially rich are those cowboys who think they can, from one awkwardly posed picture, better determine how a garment fits than the owner who has actually worn it a number of times. Happily, we have an example of that near at hand:

Originally Posted by lakewolf

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This picture posted by Manton do looks badly fitted IMO, you could tell his real shoulder ends where the arrow is and the shoulder extends past that point... maybe it is just the way he is holding the Camera.

Lakewolf, this may come as news to you, but most human shoulders are not perfect right angles; they are complex curves. Hence there is no strict point at which the shoulder ends and the arm begins. About the best we can do is say that the shoulder is definitely over at the widest point of the deltoid muscle. Certainly, if a coat's shoulders are so narrow that the delt bulges out of the upper sleeve, the coat is too small.

"Too big" is harder to say, because of the phenomenon known as "extension." Matt's Rubinacci jackets are extended well past the point where they would need to end merely to ensure that his delts do not bulge. Does that make them "poorly fitted"? I don't think so. This is but another example of another message board habit, that of assuming that one's own stylistic preferences determine proper fit in every instance. You may not like extension -- after flirting with it for many years, I determined that I don't either -- but it's a mistake to characterize it as improper fit.

However, in the case of my jacket, you are simply wrong: the shoulders are not extended at all. What may give you that impression is the ripple where the "drape" terminates at the armscye. "Drape" is another one of those things that message board supercritics mistake with fit. It's a stylistic choice. Like or not, it has nothing to do with fit.

Manton,

Your explanations are clear.

Should I understand from them then, that proper fit is thus a subjective concept, depending on the wearers stylistic preferences ?

Originally Posted by Manton

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No, I think what ed is saying is that it's a bit rich for Internet cowboys to pick every possible nit of every photo they see when they don't have the balls to post their own stuff to show how it's supposed to be done; or, when do muster up the courage, they prefer to post their stuff on hangers, laying flat on a table. Especially rich are those cowboys who think they can tell, from one awkwardly posed picture, how a garment fits better than the owner who has actually worn it a number of times.
Nothing like a good Monday morning spanking!

Originally Posted by Manton

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A real gem, even by your standards.

No, I think what ed is saying is that it's a bit rich for Internet cowboys to pick every possible nit of every photo they see when they don't have the balls to post their own stuff to show how it's supposed to be done; or, when do muster up the courage, they prefer to post their stuff on hangers, laying flat on a table. Especially rich are those cowboys who think they can tell, from one awkwardly posed picture, how a garment fits better than the owner who has actually worn it a number of times. Happily, we have an example of that near at hand:

Somebody should put this in their sig.

Originally Posted by lakewolf

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Should I understand from them then, that proper fit is thus a subjective concept, depending on the wearers stylistic preferences ?

By this post you show yourself not merely unable to understand, nor even merely unwilling to understand; you go a step further and insist on claiming that my post says the opposite of what it in fact says. As with our conversations about America, there is no common ground here and nothing further to discuss.

Originally Posted by Manton

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By this post you show yourself not merely unable to understand, nor even merely unwilling to understand; you go a step further and insist on claiming that my post says the opposite of what it in fact says. As with our conversations about America, there is no common ground here and nothing further to discuss.

I am trying to understand what you are saying...

Let's be more clear

So, If somebody likes shoulder extension, he would see Ed's shoulder as not properly fit, If somebody doesn't like shoulder extension he would see your shoulder ( or Matt's ) as not properly fit. ( sure maybe it is because of the posture or drape but in the picture you can see something strange there )

So who's is right ? Both ? None ? It depends on the style preferences ?

Or it is just right whoever speaks louder ?

Maybe you can post something that shows what is really proper fit and what not.

I posted 4 pictures that I think are properly fitted. maybe I am wrong and I am walking around with poorly fitted jackets and one day style police will get me...

What I said was quite clear: fit is separable from silhouette, from stylistic preference. If it were not, then all coats would look the same, and there would be no regional styles at all, and no such thing as "house styles" within the tailoring traditions of individual cities. I know this view is held by some online. (Or claimed to be held; it's hard to believe that anyone could be that daft. More likely it's just another example of the any-weapon-at-hand tactic frequently employed by the intellectually dishonest.)

You can criticize a Sack coat or a drape coat or a lean coat for being Sacky or drapey or overlean, but those would be stylistic criticisms and not fit criticisms. People confuse the two all the time, either because they don't know any better or because they do but don't care: the real point of their criticism is to attack the person in the picture, not to make a true, valid point about his clothes.

Originally Posted by lakewolf

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Maybe I am wrong and I am walking around with poorly fitted jackets and one day style police will get me...

Bravo to you for finding a way to fall back on that trope. I suppose it did not occur to you that in this exchange, it is YOU who are acting as the "style police," saying that any style you don't like is an example of poor fit? Whatever, any weapon at hand ...

Originally Posted by lakewolf

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I posted 4 pictures that I think are properly fitted. maybe I am wrong and I am walking around with poorly fitted jackets and one day style police will get me...

Your shoulders exhibit the same issues as Edward's do. You also have a gaping collar and the armholes look awfully big. Also, for such a padded jacket, the shoulders are quite bumpy.

Originally Posted by fighetta

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Your shoulders exhibit the same issues as Edward's do. You also have a gaping collar and the armholes look awfully big. Also, for such a padded jacket, the shoulders are quite bumpy.

Seems to me you want to be style-police here ....

The sleeves will show different courved areas according to your arm position, they are not allways straight.

the one you call gapping collar is a 2 button jacket ( the only one from the 4 pictures ) with a very rolled lapel so it shows more opening than the others.. there is no gapping.

How can you know the size of the armholes when they are not shown in the pictures ? c'mon !

Originally Posted by Connemara

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Okay, critique this guy for us tailors?

Originally Posted by Soph

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Okay, critique this guy for us tailors?

The example in the middle is exquisite. The others are not good poses to judge these kinds of issues.

Originally Posted by lakewolf

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Seems to me you want to be style-police here ....


Did you not ask for comments. Whatever you say about the sleeves, not jacket is supposed to look like that at the collar. Sorry.