lefty's random dog thread.

Not a lot of experience with LGDs, but they do scare me a little.

There's a guy on the farm next to my cabin that owns two Akbash and I wouldn't want to screw with them.

lefty

Stazy, update?

lefty

It just occurs to me that tomorrow, January 26th, will be the 10th anniversary of the fatal mauling of Diane Alexis Whipple by the two Presa Canario dogs Bane and Hera in San Francisco.

I think that surely must have been the most publicized dog-bite fatality in the history of the USA.

As I have previously remarked, perhaps in this thread, I think the convictions of their owners, Robert Noel and Marjorie Knoller, were a legal lynching, but they largely brought it on their own heads by their imprudent remarks, bizarre actions (adopting Paul "Cornfed" Schneider) and combative demeanor after the incident. Even then, with more competent counsel, they might have walked.

As I remember it, they were batshit crazy and responsible for that death - lack of control over their dogs.

Lot of dogs (not to mention, Whipple) paid the ultimate price for that tragedy.

lefty

Originally Posted by JLibourel

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.

As I have previously remarked, perhaps in this thread, I think the convictions of their owners, Robert Noel and Marjorie Knoller, were a legal lynching, but they largely brought it on their own heads by their imprudent remarks, bizarre actions (adopting Paul "Cornfed" Schneider) and combative demeanor after the incident. Even then, with more competent counsel, they might have walked.

Lets not forget that in addition to their bizarre actions their dogs did kill a women.

Originally Posted by JLibourel

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It just occurs to me that tomorrow, January 26th, will be the 10th anniversary of the fatal mauling of Diane Alexis Whipple by the two Presa Canario dogs Bane and Hera in San Francisco.

I think that surely must have been the most publicized dog-bite fatality in the history of the USA.

As I have previously remarked, perhaps in this thread, I think the convictions of their owners, Robert Noel and Marjorie Knoller, were a legal lynching, but they largely brought it on their own heads by their imprudent remarks, bizarre actions (adopting Paul "Cornfed" Schneider) and combative demeanor after the incident. Even then, with more competent counsel, they might have walked.

I definitely think they got what they deserved. Had their animals mauled one of my children, a legal trial would have been the least of their worries, no ITG.

Originally Posted by lefty

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Stazy, update?

lefty

He's fine. I ended up taking him to the vet but his temperature was normal & he wasn't dehydrated. He slept the rest of the day & yesterday he was good as new.

Originally Posted by lefty

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As I remember it, they were batshit crazy and responsible for that death - lack of control over their dogs.

Lot of dogs (not to mention, Whipple) paid the ultimate price for that tragedy.

lefty

This +1

If I remember right the couple used to intimidate their neighbors with the dogs.

Any ideas on how to make a dog more ball-happy? I had a male who would do anything for his toys: I'd hang them from a tree and tell him to jump for them; I'd hide them in a bush and tell him to find them. He'd also return naturally.

The female below will return a ball if I really coax her, but she gets bored within 10 minutes. She also finds it hard not to drop the ball early and return empty-handed. She also bores of treats easily, so rewarding her when she finally does it right is difficult. She does like to tug, so sometimes that works as a reward.

Concerning the San Francisco Presa case, I will concede that Noel and Knoller were weird and creepy people. That doesn't make them murderers. A few points: the attack on Diane Whipple sounds like some sort of Sudden Onset Rage syndrome on the part of Bane, the principal attacker. Hera seems only to have been involved peripherally in the attack, which is why Noel and Knoller, foolishly no doubt, fought to save her. There was a lot of temperamental instability upline from Bane that N&K had no way of knowing about. Bear in mind, too, that they had only had Bane for 4 1/2 months when the attack occurred. They had made good-faith efforts to socialize the dogs, having them ride on public transport and taking them to outdoor cafes and such with no unpleasant incidents.

The dogs were evidently somewhat rowdy and "mouthy" and sometimes scrappy with other dogs. I see that all the time in other people's dogs, but I don't immediately presume that they are going to tear someone's throat out!

I don't think N&K "threatened" people with their dogs, but they evidently found it amusing when other people were frightened of their dogs. I must confess I too can find it funny. I was having my car serviced the other day, and as always, I had my dog along to walk him home, a two-mile jaunt. The dog was greeting the service personnel, nuzzling their hands and wagging his tail. When I went back to get the car, they told me that another customer in there had been terrified of the dog. They thought it was funny, and so did I. However, in fairness to the guy who was afraid, if some guy brought in a 8-foot boa constrictor draped across his shoulders, I'd give it a wide berth, even though rationally I would know that the animal posed scant danger. Some people just don't cotton to dogs the way I don't cotton to snakes.

Originally Posted by ken

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Any ideas on how to make a dog more ball-happy? I had a male who would do anything for his toys: I'd hang them from a tree and tell him to jump for them; I'd hide them in a bush and tell him to find them. He'd also return naturally.

The female below will return a ball if I really coax her, but she gets bored within 10 minutes. She also finds it hard not to drop the ball early and return empty-handed. She also bores of treats easily, so rewarding her when she finally does it right is difficult. She does like to tug, so sometimes that works as a reward.

There are some dogs that just don't have ball drive. You can build it up but it will never be that strong. If she had drive for a tug then take away every other toy and use the tug only. Short (under 15 minutes) sessions then put it away while she is still hot for it. One or two sessions per day.

Originally Posted by JLibourel

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Concerning the San Francisco Presa case, I will concede that Noel and Knoller were weird and creepy people. That doesn't make them murderers. A few points: the attack on Diane Whipple sounds like some sort of Sudden Onset Rage syndrome on the part of Bane, the principal attacker. Hera seems only to have been involved peripherally in the attack, which is why Noel and Knoller, foolishly no doubt, fought to save her. There was a lot of temperamental instability upline from Bane that N&K had no way of knowing about. Bear in mind, too, that they had only had Bane for 4 1/2 months when the attack occurred. They had made good-faith efforts to socialize the dogs, having them ride on public transport and taking them to outdoor cafes and such with no unpleasant incidents.

The dogs were evidently somewhat rowdy and "mouthy" and sometimes scrappy with other dogs. I see that all the time in other people's dogs, but I don't immediately presume that they are going to tear someone's throat out!

I don't think N&K "threatened" people with their dogs, but they evidently found it amusing when other people were frightened of their dogs. I must confess I too can find it funny. I was having my car serviced the other day, and as always, I had my dog along to walk him home, a two-mile jaunt. The dog was greeting the service personnel, nuzzling their hands and wagging his tail. When I went back to get the car, they told me that another customer in there had been terrified of the dog. They thought it was funny, and so did I. However, in fairness to the guy who was afraid, if some guy brought in a 8-foot boa constrictor draped across his shoulders, I'd give it a wide berth, even though rationally I would know that the animal posed scant danger. Some people just don't cotton to dogs the way I don't cotton to snakes.

If I remember correctly these were dogs raised by idiots to fight. My guess is that they were seriously unsocialized and undisciplined. I don't think this was rage as much as it was some social aggression that escalated once the victim fought back. The inexperienced owner compounded the problem.

Murder? No. Is that what they were convicted of?

lefty

Originally Posted by lefty

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Murder? No. Is that what they were convicted of?

lefty

2nd degree murder conviction for the lady, I believe, after some appeal.

Yeah, Marjorie Knoller got 2nd degree. The judge overturned the murder conviction, but the prosecution appealed and the higher courts re-instated the murder conviction. She is facing 15-to-life.

The dogs were never schooled for pit fighting nor did they ever get any aggression training that I am aware of. They were initially cared for by a kindly Christian lady in a remote rural setting in Hayfield, California, who had befriended Schneider out of a sense of Christian duty and had been conned into taking on the Presas. Noel and Knoller, acting as Schneider's attorneys, rep'oed the dogs from her because Schneider was dissatisfied with the way she was caring for them. This occurred at the end of March 2000. Shortly thereafter, they took in Hera. Bane had been placed with a Mexican family that had ties to Schneider. They did not care for him very well, and Schneider had Noel and Knoller take in Bane as well. They brought him to their apartment on September 6, 2000. I don't know if the Presas' backgrounds were any worse than countless shelter dogs that have made wonderful pets.

As a matter of interest, eminent Presa breeder Alex Vyatkin got a lot of flak because Bane's dam was one of his dogs. According to Vyatkin (in a long post on Bandog Banter) he investigated the matter and found a lot of temperamental instability upline from Bane's sire. He also evaluated a litter brother of Bane's. This dog had always been friendly and gentle and not even dog or cat aggressive. Anyway, he tried a bit of temperament testing and then did a bit of agitation work. The dog went completely insane with rage and went at him in a relentless manner that he had never seen in 20 years of agitation work. I think there was something more at work here than simply an undertrained, under-socialized dog with high aggression potential. Besides, Noel in particular did make considerable efforts to socialize the dog during the time he had him.

Meet the breed: The Hovawart.




Very old breed and excellent working dog and companion, the Hovawart just isn't seen that often in NA or outside Germany for that matter. I've seen a few being trained and they can be formidable. Personally, I've never liked them as they look too much like Goldens for me.

lefty