Friday WAYWRN Challenge: MC Does SW&D - YOUR WINNER ANNOUNCED

DocHolliday · Nov 22, 2010

Originally Posted by SpooPoker

I can understand that, and have done that myself... but thats just a generalization of some posters there. But Vo...er, Corbera said non-conformity, and I was just curious to whom we were not conforming too.

Im not stirring ****, Im really genuinely curious.

WAYW is filled with guys deliberately wearing unusual stuff/odd pairings in the name of personal style. That effort to stand out from the crowd is pretty much the definition of nonconformity, no?

I suspect part of the problem is that there's so little to conform to these days. There's an absence of outside influence to hold our baser desires in check, or at least to use as a baseline for reference. Who isn't a nonconformist these days?

It's a tough balancing act. After all, most guys join SF precisely because they don't want to dress like everyone else. But ultimately the goal has to become more specific than that. And that's hard.

UrbanComposition · Nov 22, 2010

Originally Posted by DocHolliday

I am not Senor Corbera, but here's my suspicion: In basking in the freedom to wear whatever they like, MC posters can become more focused on individual items than on the ensemble as a whole. Outfits appear to have been assembled because the individual items are cool, or unusual, or expensive, rather than because those items relate to each other in a pleasing or logical way.

I am guilty of this myself.

Ultimately, even the craziest outfits need to look cohesive.

Sigged.

Metlin · Nov 22, 2010

Originally Posted by DocHolliday

WAYW is filled with guys deliberately wearing unusual stuff/odd pairings in the name of personal style. That effort to stand out from the crowd is pretty much the definition of nonconformity, no? I suspect part of the problem is that there's so little to conform to these days. There's an absence of outside influence to hold our baser desires in check, or at least to use as a baseline for reference. Who isn't a nonconformist these days? It's a tough balancing act. After all, most guys join SF precisely because they don't want to dress like everyone else. But ultimately the goal has to become more specific than that. And that's hard.
I can't remember who said this (and come to think of it, maybe it was you, Doc), but it is easy to pull off the MC look once -- what makes it hard is to do it repeatedly. So, after a while, it becomes an exercise at trying to repeatedly pull off good looks without looking repetitive and boring. Which would probably help explain the "peacocking" in MC.

Metlin · Nov 22, 2010

Originally Posted by BB1

Interesting how many MCer's choose to dismiss SW&D approved styles as being entirely age inappropriate for themselves. The premise being that once you reach a certain age and have certain responsibilities, then it is only proper for you to wear bland/boring (i.e. non-edgy) clothing for your casual wear just like all the other guys your age do.
That's a broad brush to paint all of MC with. There are a lot of fairly young folks at MC, and a good many of them in their 20s. Now, many of the more stylish members may be older, but that's because good bespoke clothing and accessories are expensive and the older members have the means to afford them. But that's not always the case -- just take a look at how much thrifting goes on here. I think the point that's being missed here is that a lot of folks in MC *enjoy* dressing in a manner that SW&D obviously considers bland and boring. It has nothing to do with age.

LA Guy · Nov 22, 2010

Originally Posted by F. Corbera

You're a thoughtful and reasonable person, so I'm prepared to suspend my conclusion that SW&D has become more and more a straight-jacket of niche conformity. I will look again tomorrow.

Instead, what I will say about the MC WAYWRN thread is that it has become a writhing mess of non-conformity. Most days, it's like Salvation Army and Filene's Basement exploded onto an online thread.

In either case, there are the few that can always harvest a good look from the chaos.

I should clarify that what I was referring to was actually ideas of propriety. It's really a non-issue in SW&D, while it seems to be a real concern in MC. Just compare and contrast the various threads about this contest.

Re. "niche conformity". There is much more infighting/discussion between different camps in SW&D, which should say something about the dynamics of the two subforums.

F. Corbera · Nov 22, 2010

Originally Posted by SpooPoker

Conforming to whose standards exactly? I ask this seriously.

Originally Posted by DocHolliday

I am not Senor Corbera, but here's my suspicion: In basking in the freedom to wear whatever they like, MC posters can become more focused on individual items than on the ensemble as a whole. Outfits appear to have been assembled because the individual items are cool, or unusual, or expensive, rather than because those items relate to each other in a pleasing or logical way.

I am guilty of this myself.

Ultimately, even the craziest outfits need to look cohesive.

Originally Posted by SpooPoker

I can understand that, and have done that myself... but thats just a generalization of some posters there. But Vo...er, Corbera said non-conformity, and I was just curious to whom we were not conforming too.

Im not stirring ****, Im really genuinely curious.

Originally Posted by DocHolliday

WAYW is filled with guys deliberately wearing unusual stuff/odd pairings in the name of personal style. That effort to stand out from the crowd is pretty much the definition of nonconformity, no?

I suspect part of the problem is that there's so little to conform to these days. There's an absence of outside influence to hold our baser desires in check, or at least to use as a baseline for reference. Who isn't a nonconformist these days?

It's a tough balancing act. After all, most guys join SF precisely because they don't want to dress like everyone else. But ultimately the goal has to become more specific than that. And that's hard.

That's about it. I could be wrong, but it also seems to me that WAYWRN is now dominated by ensembles posted up by guys who might be the only jacket and tie wearer in their day to day environment. In other words, jacket and tie are non-conformist statements. That approach to dressing quite often leads to excess unrooted in the smoothing influence of social interaction.

Also, it seems inevitable that as time passes, more and more young guys are approaching tailored clothes from a postion in which the chain of aesthetic and social custody of what to wear, father to son, has already been broken. Instincts are raw; knowledge is weak; inclinations unfettered. This is a fantastic basis for creativity, but often specifically unfortunate when it comes to classic mens dressing.

F. Corbera · Nov 22, 2010

Originally Posted by LA Guy

I should clarify that what I was referring to was actually ideas of propriety. It's really a non-issue in SW&D, while it seems to be a real concern in MC. Just compare and contrast the various threads about this contest.

Re. "niche conformity". There is much more infighting/discussion between different camps in SW&D, which should say something about the dynamics of the two subforums.

I understand your use of the word propriety, but may I offer an alternative since this is not AAAC? Dressing properly still has a bit of relevance in modern life, especially for important social events. Moreover, for many there is still meaningful utility to be had in dressing in ways that do not draw significant envy, scorn, or perplexity from the people around you. Understanding these things is simply one of the measures of manhood and I hope no one is silly enough to think that this forum or others like it can teach that.

So, what I meant was more of the following: in the general case of classic mens clothes, jacket and tie, the main benefit of history lies not in propriety but in offering the free advantage of a prior century of experimentation in what looks good. Sure, you can challenge that history if you are really, really able. Few are. Sure, you can draw inspiration from the more quixotic or flamboyant parts of that history. But beware.

I meant nothing more than that. It sounds trivial, but so, too, is this forum. Pleasantly so.

niidawg3 · Nov 22, 2010

Originally Posted by F. Corbera

I understand your use of the word propriety, but may I offer an alternative since this is not AAAC? Dressing properly still has a bit of relevance in modern life, especially for important social events. Moreover, for many there is still meaningful utility to be had in dressing in ways that do not draw significant envy, scorn, or perplexity from the people around you. Understanding these things is simply one of the measures of manhood and I hope no one is silly enough to think that this forum or others like it can teach that.

So, what I meant was more of the following: in the general case of classic mens clothes, jacket and tie, the main benefit of history lies not in propriety but in offering the free advantage of a prior century of experimentation in what looks good. Sure, you can challenge that history if you are really, really able. Few are. Sure, you can draw inspiration from the more quixotic or flamboyant parts of that history. But beware.

I meant nothing more than that. It sounds trivial, but so, too, is this forum. Pleasantly so.

Thats that Harvard education speaking ... lol.

Parker · Nov 22, 2010

I like the new guy.

F. Corbera · Nov 22, 2010

Originally Posted by Parker

I like the new guy.

Click.

Parker · Nov 22, 2010

F. Corbera · Nov 22, 2010

Originally Posted by niidawg3

Thats that Harvard education speaking ... lol.

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DocHolliday · Nov 22, 2010

Originally Posted by F. Corbera

Sure, you can draw inspiration from the more quixotic or flamboyant parts of that history. But beware.

It sounds like you're suggesting people should not try to dress like characters from stylish 1960s spy spoofs. That's terrible advice.

Holdfast · Nov 22, 2010

Originally Posted by F. Corbera

Moreover, for many there is still meaningful utility to be had in dressing in ways that do not draw significant envy, scorn, or perplexity from the people around you.
I would argue the real talent lies in realising when these opinions matter and when they don't. That is sometimes a difficult balance, as evidenced by the sheer level of neurosis on display in some of the "is this OK for a job interview/date/presentation" type of threads. More broadly though, I've tried to manage life in such a way as to sustainably increase the proportion of my life where I don't really need to bother too much about whether others are envious, scornful or indeed perplexed. You've probably done the same. It's never possible to reach a point where that liberty will be 100% of the time unless you're either a God or six feet under (the "no man is an island" effect), but it is possible to greatly reduce the proportion of time when it matters. Amusingly and paradoxically enough - or perhaps because it speaks of something about the essential human condition - as that freedom in my real life has grown, so I've ended up posting photos of my outfits on the internet for, yes, others to comment.... figure THAT one out...

SpooPoker · Nov 22, 2010

A professor, a psychologist, and a doctor walk into a bar.....

Friday WAYWRN Challenge: MC Does SW&D - YOUR WINNER ANNOUNCED

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