When is 'bespoke' tailoring not bespoke? A serious discussion...

[JubeiSpiegel]

Botspoke...

 

[Griffindork]



I think you just step in the 3D scanner and then choose some options from a computer screen. Full disclosure, I haven't done it myself, just going based off this para:

I wonder whether it's creating a new pattern or just altering a BB block pattern. If the former, that is mind-bending. If the latter, then I'm sure it can turn out well but it still feels bounded by limitations that to me feel more like made to measure than bespoke.

 

[Grammaton Cleric]



Ok. I will leave the straw man arguments at home because, to be frank, you seem pretty intimidating over the internet. Just be aware that the straw man arguments were my best foot forward, and all I've got left is mama jokes and complaints about your personal appearance.

Stellar comeback.

 

[unbelragazzo]



I wonder whether it's creating a new pattern or just altering a BB block pattern. If the former, that is mind-bending. If the latter, then I'm sure it can turn out well but it still feels bounded by limitations that to me feel more like made to measure than bespoke.

I have no idea how good it is, or exactly what they do with the measurements (guessing it's more altering a block pattern).

But I think having the fittings is way more important than getting the pattern right to begin with anyway. The distinction between "your own pattern" and "altering a block pattern" is somewhat overblown IMHO. Even when drafting "your own pattern", most tailors are going to be drafting the pattern based on some "system." I am not expert enough to really arbitrate, but that sounds suspiciously like taking a block pattern and altering it. The vaunted "rock of eye" might seem another class of production, but even so, the idea, so far as I understand it, is to leave a lot of work to be done at the fittings. So my view is all this taxonomy of different levels of customization is not that useful. What matters is how good a fitter you have, and how much he understands your vision for the garment.

 

[poorsod]

FM from your initial post I think you are seeking the answer for the question "what processes should you look for to get the best results from bespoke".

Is that right?

I think there should be a follow up question "which of these processes are worth the cost."

 

[Griffindork]



I have no idea how good it is, or exactly what they do with the measurements (guessing it's more altering a block pattern).

But I think having the fittings is way more important than getting the pattern right to begin with anyway. The distinction between "your own pattern" and "altering a block pattern" is somewhat overblown IMHO. Even when drafting "your own pattern", most tailors are going to be drafting the pattern based on some "system." I am not expert enough to really arbitrate, but that sounds suspiciously like taking a block pattern and altering it. The vaunted "rock of eye" might seem another class of production, but even so, the idea, so far as I understand it, is to leave a lot of work to be done at the fittings. So my view is all this taxonomy of different levels of customization is not that useful. What matters is how good a fitter you have, and how much he understands your vision for the garment.

I suppose that as long as the block pattern can be altered as much as one from scratch, then the difference can be reduced to the point that it no longer matters. I would have thought that starting from a set of measurements would be a better starting point as opposed to a block simply because the measurements will be closer, but if that block can be altered to get to the right point then the differences are greatly reduced.

 

[unbelragazzo]



I suppose that as long as the block pattern can be altered as much as one from scratch, then the difference can be reduced to the point that it no longer matters. I would have thought that starting from a set of measurements would be a better starting point as opposed to a block simply because the measurements will be closer, but if that block can be altered to get to the right point then the differences are greatly reduced.

When people say that a tailor cuts off a block, they mean (as I understand it) that he starts with one block (or often, he has several at his disposal and starts with the one that best suits his purpose) and alters it based on measurements that he has taken from the customer.

It's really not much different from what many bespoke tailors do when they have a few jackets they carry with them, either from their RTW line or a few jackets made up solely for this purpose, or jackets of waiting customers, which they have new clients try on to note what adjustments would need to be made.

 

[Griffindork]

It means that the tailor has a series of paper patters that are laid on the cloth and then adjusted to account for measurements, as opposed to creating an entirely new paper pattern. I would hope that once the adjustments are made the new pattern is retained or else a lot would be lost, but I'm agreeing with you that you can end up in the same place. I would have thought that using the de novo pattern would be a closer starting point for the first fitting and would require fewer adjustments, but the block likely saves time. As long as the adjustments don't throw the entire pattern in disarray (which I assume can happen only with very unusual body types) I think you are probably right that any problems that arise from use of a block can be remedied with a good fitting process. But that is simply a guess.

 

[SeamasterLux]

Interesting. I've never heard a tailor denigrate another's work. Some of the Italian's hate the non-Italian clothes that I wear, but that has struck me more as a stylistic preference than an attack on someone else's work. I once begged a shoemaker to help me identify things wrong with another's shoes that I was wearing and I eventually got them to give some modest criticism (as well as an offer to try to fix them).

Anyway, after doing this for a long time and spending a lot of money with a lot of different people, I've come to the conclusion that I want the same person doing the measuring, cutting and fitting for my clothes. If the person who is cutting my suit hasn't measured me in person, then I don't think of it as bespoke. That isn't a verdict on the final product as suits can come out wonderfully or badly regardless of the method, but I want a single person to take ownership of the most crucial parts of the process.

Interesting discussion. I've talked with (too) many tailors that denigrate others' work. Between Italian, between French. Less so in England but there I put most of them in the same boat apart from A&S which is the only tailor I actually like. Oh, hold that thought, there's Chittleborough & Morgan as well.

I have most of the time, for bespoke, the same person measuring, cutting and fitting. I mean, cutting at least the jacket. Trousers are another story.

I understand your request which I think is definitely valid. For Ripense which I use very often, Andrea measures but the person cutting and fitting is one of his tailors. They do know me very well anyway. I've been there countless times.

 

[FlyingMonkey]



For Ripense which I use very often, Andrea measures but the person cutting and fitting is one of his tailors. They do know me very well anyway. I've been there countless times. 

Interesting comment. Is the personal relationship and trust that can / should develop part of the appeal of bespoke tailoring? I'm not going to argue it should be added to @unbelragazzo's set of minimal requirements (because clearly it's not unique to bespoke), but it does seem to involved in what's been said by most people here in one form or another.

 

[unbelragazzo]



Interesting comment. Is the personal relationship and trust that can / should develop part of the appeal of bespoke tailoring? I'm not going to argue it should be added to @unbelragazzo's set of minimal requirements (because clearly it's not unique to bespoke), but it does seem to involved in what's been said by most people here in one form or another.

To be clear, my definition is just of what bespoke is, not its appeal. Just like you can make chicken salad without the grapes and it's still chicken salad, but why would you do that to yourself.

 

[SeamasterLux]

Interesting comment. Is the personal relationship and trust that can / should develop part of the appeal of bespoke tailoring? I'm not going to argue it should be added to @unbelragazzo's set of minimal requirements (because clearly it's not unique to bespoke), but it does seem to involved in what's been said by most people here in one form or another.

The personal relationship is in my view the key to a successful tailoring. No good tailoring has come out from tailors I did not appreciate much.

Just like you can make chicken salad without the grapes and it's still chicken salad, but why would you do that to yourself.

This is pure gold, I would be tempted to add it to my signature

 

[unbelragazzo]



The personal relationship is in my view the key to a successful tailoring. No good tailoring has come out from tailors I did not appreciate much. 


This is pure gold, I would be tempted to add it to my signature

All yours! And I agree about the personal relationship. I wouldn't say there are tailors I didn't appreciate necessarily, just some I felt more comfortable with and started out with more common understanding of what I wanted.

 

[Griffindork]



The personal relationship is in my view the key to a successful tailoring. No good tailoring has come out from tailors I did not appreciate much. 

This is the kind of thing that only a participant on an Internet forum could say. These high end bespoke tailors are dressing heads of state and incredibly wealthy people whose interaction outside of tailoring consists of having someone else hand over a credit card on their behalf. Pleasantries nights be exchanged, but a personal relationship? Please. And they come out looking great. You don't have to walk in and show your styleforum credentials to get a great suit. You don't even have to show an interest in the craft.

 

[unbelragazzo]



This is the kind of thing that only a participant on an Internet forum could say. These high end bespoke tailors are dressing heads of state and incredibly wealthy people whose interaction outside of tailoring consists of having someone else hand over a credit card on their behalf. Pleasantries nights be exchanged, but a personal relationship? Please. And they come out looking great. You don't have to walk in and show your styleforum credentials to get a great suit. You don't even have to show an interest in the craft.

Sure, but aren't we speaking from the point of view of participants on an Internet forum? I took as given that we were talking about what creates a satisfying experience and end result for us, or people with our predilections and recondite fixations, rather than just what will look good on TV.