What can Kobe/Lebron do to surpass Jordan?

[The Deacon]

Originally Posted by thekunk07

btw, correlalries with modern players:
(none of them are as good as their elders, but)
kobe=mj
lebron=magic
boozer=barkley
durant=bernard king
melo='nique

i could go on, and no bird, because a)no good white players (not that bird comparison would have to be white), and b) no one has similar game IMO

DURANT AND GEORGE GERVIN

 

[intent]

Originally Posted by RFX45

Nothing either of them could do from now on will top MJ.

Even if Kobe wins 2 more rings, it still wouldn't be enough. MJ won 6 rings as the teams best player, Kobe won 3 with Shaq as the best player, even the Finals MVP speaks for that. Kobe has 1 regular season MVP, MJ has 5.

Lebron, he had all the potential but it would have been more plausible if he won 1 or 2 rings by now. He is only 25 but it is his 7th year in the NBA, he is about halfway his career. He has a lot of catching up. He might keep piling on the MVP, which is even more difficult now that he is in Miami, but he just wouldn't be the same because he left his team and joined up with Wade & Bosh. MJ stuck around and won, 6 times.

Imagine if MJ didn't retire the first time though, that might have been 8 straight championships.
But players are better conditioned nowadays, and I'd argue the competition is more intense than in Jordan's day. Wouldn't the MVP be worth more because LeBron faces stiffer competition?

For everyone who's down on the whole LeBron leaving Cleveland saga --- would you leave Cleveland? Jordan had an arguably better supporting cast in Chicago.

 

[Johdus Fanfoozal]

Originally Posted by intent

... and I'd argue the competition is more intense than in Jordan's day.

And you'd be wrong.

 

[Johdus Fanfoozal]

Originally Posted by thekunk07

btw, correlalries with modern players:
(none of them are as good as their elders, but)
kobe=mj
lebron=magic
boozer=barkley
durant=bernard king
melo='nique

i could go on, and no bird, because a)no good white players (not that bird comparison would have to be white), and b) no one has similar game IMO

Silly to do this considering Magic and Barkley were the most unique players ever to bounce a ball: a 6'9" PG and a 6'4" PF who are arguably the best ever at their positions. There have never been players like them before or since.

 

[RFX45]

Originally Posted by intent

But players are better conditioned nowadays, and I'd argue the competition is more intense than in Jordan's day. Wouldn't the MVP be worth more because LeBron faces stiffer competition?

For everyone who's down on the whole LeBron leaving Cleveland saga --- would you leave Cleveland? Jordan had an arguably better supporting cast in Chicago.

Better conditioned maybe but the games were more physical in MJ's days. MJ recently admitted in an interview that he could score 100 pts in todays game because of how soft it is. He said he could probably get to the line 20-30 times a night or be on foul trouble but one way or the other, MJ's era was tougher. Just check out the Bulls series against the Pistons, those guys might as well kill each other. These days, a little tap constitutes a foul while back then, you can hack a guys arm and it would go unnoticed.

To be honest, the Cavs did the best they can with supporting Lebron. But if you really think about it, he has a decent cast and he has brought them to the Finals as well. How many times have the critics said that "with the addition of ______, Lebron would have no more excuse not to win a ring." They said it with the addition of Shaq, Jamison, Williams, etc...

The fact is MJ stayed and eventually won. He could have left too when they didn't win in his first 7-8 years but he didn't. MJ never even had a legitimate center, Horace Grant is as close as he got for a good center in those championship years. He had Pippen, who is in fact a great player but most or just supporting cast. I think it also has to do with the skills vs. athleticism difference from the eras. Back then, players actually learned the basics and went to college and not just some high school phenomenon who could jump out of the building. So maybe overall MJ had a better, more fundamentally skilled team but he still lost in the beginning of his career and stayed.

One other point, MJ never seem to have given up. Lebron has, just look at last years Boston series, dude was blaming his elbow but was shooting around 40% from behind the arc. But on 2 occasions on that series, he just looked like he gave up and said *******. He seemed like that the series against the Magic the year before too. And maybe that is what differs him from MJ and Kobe, he doesn't have that killer instinct.

 

[Baron]

Originally Posted by Johdus Fanfoozal

Silly to do this considering Magic and Barkley were the most unique players ever to bounce a ball: a 6'9" PG and a 6'4" PF who are arguably the best ever at their positions. There have never been players like them before or since.

Barkley was great but there's no arguing that he was the best ever at his position - he's not in the conversation. Tim Duncan is the greatest, and KG is clearly above Barkley too. Barkley couldn't have defended either of those guys, not that he played any D to begin with. There's also Karl Malone, McHale, Elvin Hayes - Barkley is on the second tier with those guys.

 

[ohm]

Originally Posted by thekunk07

btw, kobe is a better human than MJ who really is/was a *************

um, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobe_Br...l_assault_case

Originally Posted by intent

But players are better conditioned nowadays, and I'd argue the competition is more intense than in Jordan's day. Wouldn't the MVP be worth more because LeBron faces stiffer competition?

For everyone who's down on the whole LeBron leaving Cleveland saga --- would you leave Cleveland? Jordan had an arguably better supporting cast in Chicago.


It's not if he should have left, it's how he should have left and where he should have gone to.

For what it's worth, I think we're unlikely to ever again see anyone with the same combination of talent and will to destroy that Jordan had.

 

[The Deacon]

Originally Posted by Baron

Barkley was great but there's no arguing that he was the best ever at his position - he's not in the conversation. Tim Duncan is the greatest, and KG is clearly above Barkley too. Barkley couldn't have defended either of those guys, not that he played any D to begin with. There's also Karl Malone, McHale, Elvin Hayes - Barkley is on the second tier with those guys.

Interesting argument/position. Malone had to be fed the ball to be effective, Barkley was a singular force that could take it end to end as well as breakdown his man in the half court on offense. He also played D till he got old and injury prone Many steals and blocks and he played fair position defense on his man. Malone's D sucked. Elvin was a man to quote Dr.J but he wasn't Charles, I saw both in prime, also compare all their stats. You might have something with Duncan and KG. Just my opinion. Of course, as you know, this is all debatable!

 

[hendrix]

Originally Posted by frenchy

i dont know but i think LeBron could take the Jordan of the 90's on one on one,just too big

I don't know **** at basketball but this is irrelevant. Basketball is a team sport, it doesn't matter who could beat who one on one.

 

[RFX45]

No way Lebron beats MJ easily on a one on one game, he has no post move so his size won't matter as much, not only that be he doesn't have a good mid range game. Not to mention MJ has developed his inside game from his rookie year and his mid range game is unmatched. MJ in his prime is unstoppable. To those in doubt, just check out LBJ's post move and tell me he'll beat MJ one on one: http://www.nba.com/heat/video/2010/0...360/index.html

 

[Baron]

One on one isn't very revealing. Lebron could back him in and dunk every time.

 

[Rambo]

Originally Posted by Baron

One on one isn't very revealing. Lebron could back him in and dunk every time.
Yep, and young Jordan could just zip around him and dunk on him. Old Jordan would just back him in and fade away.

 

[RFX45]

Originally Posted by Baron

One on one isn't very revealing. Lebron could back him in and dunk every time.

@ thinking he can just back MJ up and then dunk every time. Maybe if MJ were 12 yrs old. Lebron is strong for his size but he isn't overly huge compared to MJ, and MJ isn't exactly weak in his prime either. Plus MJ isn't dumb enough to let Lebron do that all the time, he may get away with it once but no way he pulls that move off twice.

I don't even think Lebron can do that on CP3 every time.

 

[mr monty]

Don't leave out Wilt? He the only player that rules where created/revised to slow him down.

Originally Posted by Baron

Durant is only 21 and already has a scoring title. He might go down as the greatest pure scorer of all time. He's phenomenal. He's going to average 32+ this year and I expect him to reach the high 30's in his peak.

Being the greatest pure scorer isn't the same as being the greatest player. Scorers are a dime a dozen

 

[dragon8]

Originally Posted by Butter

If Kobe wins 3 rings, and in the last 2 rings, he defeats Lebron, Wade, Bosh. I think no question, he's better than Jordan.

Lebron, 10 in a row.

Agree on Kobe but disagree on Lebron. Jordan stayed with one team (pretty much) throughout his career and built the Bulls and made everyone a better player. Lebron couldn't do it and had to go to a team that has a championship caliber talent to get him a title.

Jordan knows he's a great player with or w/o a ring. Lebron needs a ring to prove he's a great player