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Unfunded Liabilities: a/k/a The Cloth Thread

sensuki

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I am getting trousers made up in a Caccioppoli Covert Cloth 14oz, which I believe is the same quality as what you have there. I too ordered a Drapers sample and compared it to the Caccioppoli and it looked the same, but maybe a tiny difference in dye lot.

My fitting is on Dec 11th, I'll see if I can get a photo.
 

dan'l

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Zegna Cashco is a permanent line so "they are not making it again", they are continuously renewing, upgrading and/or enriching their offerings.

And to be more precise, the corduroys do not have a 10% cashmere component; the lighter-weight fabrics (280-290grams) have 7% cashmere, while the heavier ones (330-340grams) have 8% cashmere. It is the moleskins that do have a 10% cashmere component.

Best,

Dimitris
I realize you really know your Italian cloths, but when I was shopping around for a length of CashCo several years back, everyone told me it was no longer being produced. I think right after I found mine in a shop in Milan, I heard Zegna had it back in their collection. Also, the ladies at IVD told me they only had the two NOS bolts since it wasn‘t being made.

Is the cashmere content that high? I always thought it was a lot less than 5%.
 

Marshak

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I am getting trousers made up in a Caccioppoli Covert Cloth 14oz, which I believe is the same quality as what you have there. I too ordered a Drapers sample and compared it to the Caccioppoli and it looked the same, but maybe a tiny difference in dye lot.

My fitting is on Dec 11th, I'll see if I can get a photo.
It's Indeed the same. I got two pants in this covert fabric and after few years of wearing I have a mitigated point of view on it: not warm enough and a stiffness that doesn't allow fit mistakes.
 

sensuki

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I'll take that into consideration. Mine will be a double pleat and a full trouser leg
 

Bespoke DJP

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Dear @dan'l

Well, I don't remember everything by heart, I keep a record more on EZ lines than on LP ones, perhaps now by inertia! At any rate, they never really discontinued (perhaps narrowed at some points of time) the line AFAIK, and you know that this comes from the horse's mouth.

The ladies at Il Vecchio Drappiere certainly do know their business, but as other merchants (not brand representatives!) they might respond to enquires based on the stock they already possess or easy to be procured; has happened to all of us!

As to your last question, in tandem with other lines, the CashCo has been evolved as well.

My very best,

Dimitris


Edited to add:
When the pandemic is finally over and I will be able & willing to pay them a visit in Milan, I can only hope to bump into such a nice find as your own CashCo fabric!
 
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Bespoke DJP

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I am getting trousers made up in a Caccioppoli Covert Cloth 14oz, which I believe is the same quality as what you have there. I too ordered a Drapers sample and compared it to the Caccioppoli and it looked the same, but maybe a tiny difference in dye lot.

My fitting is on Dec 11th, I'll see if I can get a photo.

A photo will be very welcome!

Caccioppoli covert cloth is most probably made by VBC, hence it is the same with the Drapers one. Of course, slight differences always exist even in different batches of the same production line.

Best,

Dimitris
 

Marshak

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I'll take that into consideration. Mine will be a double pleat and a full trouser leg
A full cut is the good choice with this fabric. The drape is excellent. Perfectly wearable until the early summer.
 

brax

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Wide-wale corduroy is always useful. There are several out there, and the ones with a tiny bit of synthetics aren't necessarily worse. Dry-cleaning is essential, of course.

And if you like the Breton red canvas, Murray's of Nantucket will sell it to you by the meter or yard. That has a really old-fashioned dye, though. So you will have to wash it in cold water after it is made.
A length of Murray's Nantucket Reds has landed in Naples. It will be made into a jacket in the spring. I washed it twice before mailing it yet expect it to keep fading. Here is the new one on the left with a pair of old trousers on the right.
2DC565BF-7340-4B7D-A7CE-975049D0EEF3_1_201_a.jpeg
 

venividivicibj

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Love the perfectly faded red
 

Concordia

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Is your tailor OK with working on that? I tried to have NsM make the trousers, and their seamstresses couldn’t manage it. Had to use Whitcomb and Shaftesbury instead.

Also, will you have any special construction on the jacket, as it cannot be dry cleaned?
 

Calanon

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I tried posting this on advice subforum, but no responses, and it is primarily about cloth so I feel like this thread might give me some answers.

As great as seasonal cloths are, I am curious about four season cloths, since I lack closet space and money to have a truly seasonal wardrobe. Therefore my question is, what are good four season cloths for blazers and odd trousers? Can nailhead or pick-and-pick be worn as odd trousers? Can hopsack be worn four season in a temperate climate (Britain) or would something like serge be better, and how do I even find a serge blazer?
Also, when it comes to the standard cloth for a business suit is this a plain weave or a trill weave? Is there a specific standard for each? I saw a weave called prunelle mentioned somewhere, but can't find much on it.
 

RogerC

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I don't think there are truly four season cloths. In winter, layering helps, although you would still be cold around the legs. In summer, you're going to be stuffed if you spend any amount of time outside of air conditioning. Better, then, to have a small number of pieces that aren't extremely seasonal (linen, heavy flannel) but sufficiently so (mock leno/heavier worsteds). Also: what are your needs? Do you need to dress for work or are you doing so for fun? Or are you looking for a safe uniform so you don't need to overthink things too much? (Welcome, then, on the wrong forum for you my friend).

At any rate: nailhead and pick-and-pick are suit fabrics only in my book. No odd jackets, no odd trousers. For odd wool trousers, use twills (covert, cavalry, gabardine) or flannels. Hopsack comes in all shapes and sizes, and serge comes in different weights. By the way, serge is a particular kind of twill, and no-one outside of this forum will ever even be aware of the difference. If you're not going for bespoke, go to a decent retailer, try on a few and have them tailor it for you.
There is no standard cloth for a business suit. Suiting books usually contain a mix of plain weaves and twills, either solid or patterned. Weaves and patterns are different: you can have a plain weave stripe and a twill stripe, a plain weave PoW check and a twill PoW check.

If you only need a small number of highly versatile pieces, don't overthink it. Buy two blazers, and two solid mid-to-dark grey suits, one each for warmer and colder weather. Buy them from reputable retailers, such as Ede and Ravenscroft or, at a lower price point, Charles Tyrwhitt. They will work now and ten years from now. Have them tailored, and then go on to live your life.
 

classicalthunde

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I tried posting this on advice subforum, but no responses, and it is primarily about cloth so I feel like this thread might give me some answers.

As great as seasonal cloths are, I am curious about four season cloths, since I lack closet space and money to have a truly seasonal wardrobe. Therefore my question is, what are good four season cloths for blazers and odd trousers? Can nailhead or pick-and-pick be worn as odd trousers? Can hopsack be worn four season in a temperate climate (Britain) or would something like serge be better, and how do I even find a serge blazer?
Also, when it comes to the standard cloth for a business suit is this a plain weave or a trill weave? Is there a specific standard for each? I saw a weave called prunelle mentioned somewhere, but can't find much on it.
The classic answer is that there is no real 4 season fabric, as the saying goes 'jack of all trades, master of none.'

But people often forget that a jack of all trades is 'oftentimes better than a master of one.' In practice and depending on how you take to different temps, if you live in a relatively temperate climate like GB a 280g-370g fabric should work pretty solidly for all but the coldest or hottest of days. Plus, most people choose to layer when its colder (sweater, vest, overcoat, etc.), and omit the suit all together (if your profession will allow it) during peak summer months.

Fox Bros has a great vintage hopsack at 340g, Holland and Sherry Capehorn Classics book has some nice twill/serges in it at around 310g. Harrison's Moonbeam is also worth looking into, and falls within a similar weight range

I dont think there is too much difference between a twill and a serge (I think a serge may be the same weave, but more 'pronounced'). I think both are probably acceptable for business wear alongside plain weaves.

If you get two suits and two sport coat/blazers, I'd just focus on getting one from each end of that weight range. For trousers I'd recommend flannel and Calvary twill for winter, and high-twist/open weave fabrics (like Fresco, Finmeresco, Fox Air, etc.) for the summer months. If you play it right you can have a SC/trouser and suit for each end of the spectrum, and only take up a grand total of 4 hanger spaces.
 
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The Chai

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I don't think there are truly four season cloths. In winter, layering helps, although you would still be cold around the legs. In summer, you're going to be stuffed if you spend any amount of time outside of air conditioning. Better, then, to have a small number of pieces that aren't extremely seasonal (linen, heavy flannel) but sufficiently so (mock leno/heavier worsteds). Also: what are your needs? Do you need to dress for work or are you doing so for fun? Or are you looking for a safe uniform so you don't need to overthink things too much? (Welcome, then, on the wrong forum for you my friend).

At any rate: nailhead and pick-and-pick are suit fabrics only in my book. No odd jackets, no odd trousers. For odd wool trousers, use twills (covert, cavalry, gabardine) or flannels. Hopsack comes in all shapes and sizes, and serge comes in different weights. By the way, serge is a particular kind of twill, and no-one outside of this forum will ever even be aware of the difference. If you're not going for bespoke, go to a decent retailer, try on a few and have them tailor it for you.
There is no standard cloth for a business suit. Suiting books usually contain a mix of plain weaves and twills, either solid or patterned. Weaves and patterns are different: you can have a plain weave stripe and a twill stripe, a plain weave PoW check and a twill PoW check.

If you only need a small number of highly versatile pieces, don't overthink it. Buy two blazers, and two solid mid-to-dark grey suits, one each for warmer and colder weather. Buy them from reputable retailers, such as Ede and Ravenscroft or, at a lower price point, Charles Tyrwhitt. They will work now and ten years from now. Have them tailored, and then go on to live your life.
Yeah I learnt this the hard way. The closest thing I would think as a four season suit in an Australian context is mohair but again that’s strictly suiting. If you’re going to go with jacketing stick to seasonal
 

Concordia

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In the UK, I have found that one thing to consider is not just the temperature, but humidity. London and Oxford can feel like steam baths even at 65F. So having summer gear that won't look too stupid in October, and then something to hold you through the colder months is helpful.

Linen shirts are surprisingly helpful in summer, and can serve well in winter, too.

The main thing is to know what you're having to be covered for. If it is one night a week at the opera, or monthly brunch, that's one thing. Office work as a banker is another.

If I were holding myself over in the UK for 12 months, tailored wear would be at minimum:
  • dark suit (dark grey, probably) with 2 trousers (belted and with braces). This will help cover you if you are wearing more than once a week.
  • blazer (SB or DB)
  • less-formal jacket. Odd trousers (beige and mid-grey) to hold you with that and the blazer.
  • As needed, black-tie.
Ideally, one copy for summer and one for the rest of the year. Black tie is the exception, unless you will use it a lot. Probably stick to lighter weight fabric for this, as you can always layer it and formal events tend to be in really warm rooms all year round.

Otherwise for summer, that would mean a breathable worsted suit (like the High Twist 10oz from the Fineresco book), a mock leno or linen blazer, and something more obviously not-navy in linen.

For winter, the world is your oyster on fabrics. A good tweed will last forever.

Keep the suits plain and dark, so you can wear the trousers with sweater or odd jacket when packing lightly.
 
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