The End of the Sartorial Road

[norMD]

Read through the old thread. Quality over quantity appears to be an ever returning truth.

Alot less talk about motorboating...

 

[R.O. Thornhill]

I actually have to wonder about that - take shoes. Italian shoes are nearly DOA here. Heck, if you go to the Edward Green thread, what is there if you purge the Dover and Galway content?

the range of shoes that were acceptable back then was much narrower - essentially EG, JL, C&J (and just beginning G&G). Of those JL and C&J are really no longer talked about. Instead we now have discussions about Carmina, L&T, Armoury, Bonafe, SC, Anthony Cleverley, AS, a range of Japanese makers, Corthay (occasionally) and others. Italian makers have never been very popular, but the range of makers (especially in the mid-tier) being discussed is bigger. You see fewer bespoke shoes, however. Or at least they make up a smaller proportion of what’s dischssed

As for EG, if you think there is only Dover and Galway that’s “approved” you forget Westminster, Oundle, Chelsea, Beaulieu, Cadogan, Newmarket, Belgravia and Piccadilly (to name but a few)

 

[Waldo Jeffers]

I remember this thread being posted right after Vox left. It was one of Manton's attempts to "revive" the forum.

If you do not own the following things, you are not well dressed

-a blue odd jacket. If you live in a two-season climate, then two, one for warmth and one for the cold -mid gray flannel pants -decent, non-chino khakis -at least one funky (but tasteful!) non-blue tweed jacket -a mid to dark gray worsted single-breasted suit -a navy worsted single breasted...

www.styleforum.net

In that context, I realize he was trying to be polemical in order to stoke discussion. But looking back, I also think that kind of "canonical" thinking when it comes to clothing is what led a lot of guys to buy things they regret later.

I also remember discussions back then as being almost scriptural. Like, the trump card (no pun w/r/t to the president) was someone pulling out an Apparel Arts illustration. If you could show that, that was it -- it's canonical, handed down from God, this is how you're supposed to dress.

That's fine if you want to look like an AA drawing (nothing wrong with that!). But that kind of copying and pasting, especially into a very modern context, led a lot of guys to buy stuff that didn't really work for them.

Although, another lesson I've learned: clothes can be a reflection of how you think of yourself, but they also don't have to be. So long as you're aware of how you come off to others, I think it's also fine to just have fun with clothes. I don't think of clothing anymore in such existentialist ways ("who am I," etc).

the canonical list is pretty silly

it’s all context specific

It’s a combination of “where am I?” (geography, culture, profession, age) and “who am I?” (personality)

the “where am I” aspect deserves some methodology

the “who am I” aspect is feeling

 

[R.O. Thornhill]

the canonical list is pretty silly

it’s all context specific

It’s a combination of “where am I?” (geography, culture, profession, age) and “who am I?” (personality)

the “where am I” aspect deserves some methodology

the “who am I” aspect is feeling

Not sure I would call it silly. It should be read as “of its time” (even back then business environments were much more formal, at least in Europe); also it reflects a much narrower group of people (and as I said before a more homogeneous one). For someone starting out in CM and who works in a conservative business environment (see all the conservative business dress threads) it is not a bad list

 

[Big A]

the canonical list is pretty silly

it’s all context specific

It’s a combination of “where am I?” (geography, culture, profession, age) and “who am I?” (personality)

the “where am I” aspect deserves some methodology

the “who am I” aspect is feeling

That list isn’t exactly controversial, it’s hard to imagine anyone on this forum not having 80% of that list just as a matter of course.... maybe a little boring, but it’s Anton we’re talking about so [shrug]

 

[Waldo Jeffers]

Ok, but if you work in some tech startup where everyone dresses totally casually, that list would be useless unless you are ok with being perceived as a stuffy dork

I actually like much of that list but it assumes a pretty formal environment which is a very big assumption

 

[Hellbent]

Ok, but if you work in some tech startup where everyone dresses totally casually, that list would be useless unless you are ok with being perceived as a stuffy dork

Or like a non-conforming rebel.

 

[reidd]

1. Steed sport coat in navy tropical wool
2. Steed sport coat in brown wool-silk-linen
3. Steed tweed sport coats(either all of them or some random one. No preference)
4. Navy Steed suit made from Harrison's Oyster hopsack
5. Tailor Keeps' trousers in tan whipcord and cav twill
6. Pommella trousers in grey whipcord
7. Ambrosi trousers in tan and gray tropical wool
8. All my Nicholas Templeman shoes (two pairs of brown split toes so far, with black side zips coming)
9. Edward Green Dovers in dark oak
10. Edward Green Picadillys in dark oak
11. Alden for Brooks Brothers tassel loafers in black calf
12. Ascot Chang oxford cloth button-downs in light blue
13. A white poplin Ascot Chang shirt
14. A black or navy Drake's grenadine tie
15. A couple of pocket squares. Likely burgundy madder from Ralph Lauren, a couple of wool ones in different colors from Drakes, one white linen, and a couple of the old ones from Christian Kimber. .

That would be the CM side of the wardrobe. For casualwear

1. Navy Kaptain Sunshine traveler coat
2. Grey tweed Eidos topcoat
3. At least two Margiela five-zips, assuming I can't keep them all. Would go with the black lambskin and tan suede.
4. Blue 3sixteen SL-100x jeans
5. Black COF Studio jeans (M1 or M2, I can't remember which is the slimmer pair)
6. Black Our Legacy sweater
7. Grey Buzz Rickson sweatshirt
8. Grey O'Connell's Sheltand
9. Cream A Kind of Guise sweater
10. A couple of very casual pants: patched up RRL five-pocket cords, olive RRL cargo pants, a couple of Lemaire's twisted trousers, and Lemarie Tencel wide-legged pants.
11. If I can keep all my Lady White and Barns t-shirts, then all of them. If not, then I'll keep just the Lady White ones.
12. If I can keep all my plaid flannel shirts, then all of them. If not, then the thicker Iron Hearts for winter. Then the Real Japan Blue and J. Crew Wallace & Barnes for three-season.
13. Kapital Aloha shirts
14. RRL rancher jacket.
15. Ten C liner jacket
16. Nigel Cabourn Canadian bomber jacket in olive
17. Kaptain Sunshine cold-weather parka
18. Kapital side zips in brown
19. LL Bean boots
20. Crockett & Jones Breacon chukkas in dark brown pebble grain
21. Viberg service boots in dark brown
22. My dad's Rolex (Oyster Datejust)

That's what I would prob keep for now. I've given up on the idea of a forever wardrobe and accepted that I like clothing, which means changing things in and out every once in a while. That said, if I had to throw everything away now, but just keep a handful of items, I'd prob do the above.

I'm curious if there is a reason you went with Pommella for the winter trousers and Ambrosi for the summer weight ones?

 

[gnatty8]

I probably started slowing down 5 or 6 years ago, since I liked what I already had, and didn't see the point in acquiring more. If anything, it complicated my life and added a few minutes to my daily routine trying to figure out what to wear for work the next day. I do buy the odd piece when something catches my eye and fits a hole in my wardrobe, but I usually force myself to donate a few like items to Goodwill so my volume of clothes doesn't grow. I topped out of casual clothes even before that, since I'd built a wardrobe that I was comfortable with and in, and kept it to a few makers (mainly RRL) for consistency and ease. If I were starting out, I'd probably buy a dozen shirts from Ratio or Proper Cloth in solids, a half dozen pairs of shoes (Alden longwings, a cap toe, a tassel loafer, a monk, and maybe a couple pair of classic wingtips, Church's or C&J), a half dozen pairs of office pents (likely from Epaulet) and a half dozen sport coats. I haven't worn a suit in years, so there's no point for me.

 

[R.O. Thornhill]

Ok, but if you work in some tech startup where everyone dresses totally casually, that list would be useless unless you are ok with being perceived as a stuffy dork

I actually like much of that list but it assumes a pretty formal environment which is a very big assumption

Are you being obstreperous on purpose? I am not saying the list is perfect, clearly it depends on your context and style. But this is the CM forum, not the “dress like Zuck” forum. And back in 2010 this was even more the case

 

[Chaconne]

I’ve only been on SF since 2015. Still excited about clothes. On that SWD journey now so hoping it ends in full Yohji but fearing it ends at Uniqlo.

 

[dieworkwear]

Not sure I would call it silly. It should be read as “of its time” (even back then business environments were much more formal, at least in Europe); also it reflects a much narrower group of people (and as I said before a more homogeneous one). For someone starting out in CM and who works in a conservative business environment (see all the conservative business dress threads) it is not a bad list

That list isn’t exactly controversial, it’s hard to imagine anyone on this forum not having 80% of that list just as a matter of course.... maybe a little boring, but it’s Anton we’re talking about so [shrug]

I remember that list being controversial even when it was published. If you read through the thread, even guys like dopey said he thought the list didn't make sense. It was also published in 2012, around the time when everyone was bemoaning the death of CM. This was right after Vox published his rant and then went poof. So Manton tried to "revive" the forum.

I mostly lament that kind of thinking. I don't really care about what's on his list and whether it's correct.

Foo is in SLP and Patagonia now anyway. Iammatt wears zip-up hoodies. Will from ASW once asked me about Margiela. Vox occasionally wears RRL and just bought a FCL jacket.

I'm curious if there is a reason you went with Pommella for the winter trousers and Ambrosi for the summer weight ones?

No reason. I just tried different tailors and pointed to some fabrics. Those are just on the list because there's some of the trousers I wear most. I don't wear my Steed or NSM pants very often.

 

[Waldo Jeffers]

Are you being obstreperous on purpose? I am not saying the list is perfect, clearly it depends on your context and style. But this is the CM forum, not the “dress like Zuck” forum. And back in 2010 this was even more the case

just my opinion

clothing advice is useless without context

I acknowledge things have rapidly changed in the past 10 yrs

now even wall st banks are biz casual

so a list of “essentials” that is primarily coat and tie aimed is unlikely to be valid for most

even if it was more relevant 10 yrs ago this shift should give one pause before proclaiming anything necessary

 

[Waldo Jeffers]

If dressing is just a hobby then that’s your context

 

[dieworkwear]

That list isn’t exactly controversial, it’s hard to imagine anyone on this forum not having 80% of that list just as a matter of course....

IMO that's the problem.

Stuff on Manton's list that I bought and never wear. If they disappeared from my closet tomorrow, I would never know:

-decent, non-chino khakis
-a navy worsted single breasted suit
-a mid to dark gray worsted single-breasted suit
-at least one funky (but tasteful!) non-blue tweed jacket
-at least one pair of brown suede shoes
-several blue BC shirts
-black stitch caps
-some tasteful brown oxfords (exact configuration up to you)
-a solid black tie, knit or grenadine
-a solid navy tie, knit or grenadine
-a plain white linen hanky
-at least one formal tie, e.g., a B&W shepherd's check
-at least one wool or cashmere tie
-at least one linen or linen blend tie
-An overcoat in navy, charcoal or camel

Stuff on his list I don't own:

-at least one DB suit, navy worsted or medium gray flannel (the best dressers will have both)
-A complete, well-fitting, correct black tie rig, including shoes
-a white FC shirt

Stuff on his list that I bought and actually do wear:

-a blue odd jacket. If you live in a two-season climate, then two, one for warmth and one for the cold
-mid gray flannel pants
-loafers in medium brown calf, suede or shell or else burg shell
-at least one linen suit