Sole Welting

[Zapasman]

I am posting this interesting video of a GYW shoe that shows(1.30m) how is attached the upper to the rib of the white canvas (previously glued to the insole) with little stiches and before inseaming the welt. I belive that the staples are placed all around the canvas strip in this case. I wonder if ALL GYW shoes use the same technique and if so, do they have the care to take to take the staples out after the inseming is finished. My JMW had the same staples left in the shoe but just in the forepart of the insole.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVburJRGZNg

 

[DWFII]



I am posting this interesting video of a GYW shoe that shows(1.30m)  how is attached the upper to the rib  of the white canvas (previously glued to the insole) with little stiches and before inseaming the welt. I belive that the staples are placed all around the canvas strip in this case.  I wonder if ALL GYW shoes use the same technique and if so, do they have the care to take to take the staples out after the inseming is finished. My JMW had the same staples left in the shoe but just in the forepart of the insole.

Well, you'll have to give me a time stamp because I didn't see anywhere that the gemming is being attached "with little stitches." I think what you're seeing is the inseaming, not the "before inseaming." On very rare occasions gemming is sewn to the insole, I don't think many companies do that, however. I've seen it but I've never seen or heard of any outfit doing it. It requires a fairly thin insole and due to the nature of canvas--the tendency to fray---it isn't very effective. Not significantly more effective than cement alone.

Beyond that...staples. I thought we had covered this. Most if not all, manufacturers use staples to last the shoe.

Most, if not all, manufacturers leave some of those staples in place. They'd have to pull them by hand...who wants to do that?!--it takes too much time.

--

 

[Zapasman]

First I apologize. I ment "little staples". And yes, you mentioned the issue to me before. But in this video, what I have observed is that the ribbon of the canvas is joined to the upper with those little staples. May be I am wrong but afer watching the video it seems to me that is not the inseaming process (I put my eyeglasses on) cause I see no thread at all (1.30m)?. I believe this is a proceeding taken before inseaming, but I might be wrong.

If so, how is going to be possible to remove so many staples after inseaming without damaging the gemming?. I do not know if ALL GYW companies use the same proceeding but if so, the staples will remain forever, IMO.

So in this and similar cases, it is not a matter of taking the time and care to pull them out, if I am not misundertanding something.

 

[DWFII]

I don't think so. At about 1:20 we see the upper being drafted over the last. the gemming is already in place--cemented to the insole. The next operation is the upper being stapled to the outside of the gemming and to the insole--1:30. That's where the staples are ordinarily found--between the upper and the welt. And that's one of the reasons they're often mostly left in place--they're hard to get out from between the upper and the welt. Again, it would almost have to be done by hand.

And yes, I would say that almost without exception that's the way all GY shoes are made.

if so, the staples will remain forever, IMO.

Bingo.

 

[Zapasman]

DW, before watching this video I thought that the upper in GYW were stapled to the insole and not to the ribbon of the canvas!!. Thanks for clarifications.

It is being discussed many times the gemming process here, but it is important to highlight this issue too; the previuos wire/staple process, IMO in order not to get surprise like me once you "open" your shoes and find them (and pieces of plastic covers).

 

[DWFII]



DW, before watching this video I thought that the upper in GYW were stapled to the insole and not to the ribbon of the canvas!!. Thanks for clarifications.

It is being discussed many times the gemming process here, but it is important to highlight this issue too; the previuos wire/staple process, IMO in order not to get surprise like me once you "open" your shoes and find them (and pieces of plastic covers). 

First, I think the fact that the staples are in the gemming is incidental or even accidental The object is to nail the upper as close to the gemming as possible....if that means that the staple penetrates the gemming, so be it. The staple must anchor the upper to the insole, however. That's not something that is optional. So, no, the upper is not being deliberately stapled to the gemming.

And no worries about seeking clarification. It's worth repeating.

--

 

[Zapasman]

 

[MoneyWellSpent]

First, I think the fact that the staples are in the gemming is incidental or even accidental The object is to nail the upper as close to the gemming as possible....if that means that the staple penetrates the gemming, so be it. The staple must anchor the upper to the insole, however. That's not something that is optional. So, no, the upper is not being deliberately stapled to the gemming.

And no worries about seeking clarification. It's worth repeating.

--

They do staple the upper through to the gemming. That's the standard process, no accident, and they don't give any thought to removing them. Removing them isn't part of the process at all.

Here is another video, see time 2:54, and it's nice and clear where they staple it to the canvas rib. They don't staple anything to the insole directly. All GY-welted manufacturers do this, as there really isn't any other way in the current factory process as it exists today. Now, in the old GY-welted gemming method, where they cut and turned up the small flaps of leather, then the staples would have penetrated the leather in that case. However, replacing the leather flaps from the cut/turn method with the current upstanding rib didn't have any effect on the stapling process. So, now they just penetrate canvas and fiberboard (whatever is sandwiched within the canvas to make it rigid for the upstanding rib).

Also, here are a few photos:

This is an Edward Green (click for larger images):


You have to look closely, but you can see the staples just above the inseam stitch.

Here is the upper of the same shoe after it's been separated from the insole, staples clearly visible:



Here is a JM Weston insole (incidentally, one with the current gemming method instead of the old method):


You can see the tiny empty perforations left by the staples at the top of the gemming rib just above the stitches.

Here is a piece of gemming rib, after being ripped off the insole:


You can see the paper/fiberboard material that the canvas is wrapped around to form the rigid rib. Also, there is a staple in the foreground right between my index finger and thumb.

One last shot, showing the same piece of gemming, canvas wrapped around the paper/fiberboard, complete with staples:

 

[DWFII]



They do staple the upper through to the gemming. That's the standard process, no accident, and they don't give any thought to removing them. Removing them isn't part of the process at all.

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

Here is another video, see time 2:54, and it's nice and clear where they staple it to the canvas rib. They don't staple anything to the insole directly. All GY-welted manufacturers do this, as there really isn't any other way in the current factory process as it exists today. Now, in the old GY-welted gemming method, where they cut and turned up the small flaps of leather, then the staples would have penetrated the leather in that case. However, replacing the leather flaps from the cut/turn method with the current upstanding rib didn't have any effect on the stapling process. So, now they just penetrate canvas and fiberboard (whatever is sandwiched within the canvas to make it rigid for the upstanding rib). Also, here are a few photos: This is an Edward Green (click for larger images): You have to look closely, but you can see the staples just above the inseam stitch. Here is the upper of the same shoe after it's been separated from the insole, staples clearly visible: Here is a JM Weston insole (incidentally, one with the current gemming method instead of the old method): You can see the tiny empty perforations left by the staples at the top of the gemming rib just above the stitches. Here is a piece of gemming rib, after being ripped off the insole: You can see the paper/fiberboard material that the canvas is wrapped around to form the rigid rib. Also, there is a staple in the foreground right between my index finger and thumb. One last shot, showing the same piece of gemming, canvas wrapped around the paper/fiberboard, complete with staples:

I stand corrected. Thank you. Sincerely. The more I think about it the more it makes sense. And thanks for presenting a clear and rational analysis. --

 

[MoneyWellSpent]

I stand corrected. Thank you. Sincerely. The more I think about it the more it makes sense.

And thanks for presenting a clear and rational analysis.

--

 

[DWFII]



I have several friends who have small shoe factories. I have sat at a forepart laster and spoken at length with them about the processes that they use. And I've seen those staples left in the shoe...every time.

On the other hand, I've seen Anthony Delos and others use pneumatic staple guns while lasting. They always drive the staples through the insole and into the last--just as a bespoke maker drives brads or tacks directly into the insole and last . Of course, those staples are always removed.

It just never occurred to me that it would be done any other way. But as I said, it makes sense. If the staples were driven into the insole and last, and not removed, they would end up proud inside the shoe when the last was removed.

I learned something new.

Again, thank you.

 

[Zapasman]

They do staple the upper through to the gemming. That's the standard process, no accident, and they don't give any thought to removing them. Removing them isn't part of the process at all.

Here is another video, see time 2:54, and it's nice and clear where they staple it to the canvas rib. They don't staple anything to the insole directly. All GY-welted manufacturers do this, as there really isn't any other way in the current factory process as it exists today. Now, in the old GY-welted gemming method, where they cut and turned up the small flaps of leather, then the staples would have penetrated the leather in that case. However, replacing the leather flaps from the cut/turn method with the current upstanding rib didn't have any effect on the stapling process. So, now they just penetrate canvas and fiberboard (whatever is sandwiched within the canvas to make it rigid for the upstanding rib).

Also, here are a few photos:

This is an Edward Green (click for larger images):


You have to look closely, but you can see the staples just above the inseam stitch.

Here is the upper of the same shoe after it's been separated from the insole, staples clearly visible:



Here is a JM Weston insole (incidentally, one with the current gemming method instead of the old method):


You can see the tiny empty perforations left by the staples at the top of the gemming rib just above the stitches.

Here is a piece of gemming rib, after being ripped off the insole:


You can see the paper/fiberboard material that the canvas is wrapped around to form the rigid rib. Also, there is a staple in the foreground right between my index finger and thumb.

One last shot, showing the same piece of gemming, canvas wrapped around the paper/fiberboard, complete with staples:


Thanks MWS, very informative. I cut myself the outsole of one of my shoes before sending thems for resoling to JMW. I was astonish when I found the little wires, then I showed the video posted and know everything is clear to me. So, no worries for staples anymore, lol.

 

[patrickBOOTH]

Still, after years of asking, nobody can point me in the direction of a gemming supplier.

 

[diadem]

They've gone into hiding after you revealed your diabolical plan.

 

[DWFII]

Would it were so...

But can you blame them?