Sole Welting

[TheWraith]

Thanks for the added info, bengal. Very instructive.

 

[Nick V.]



I said that I don't do repair on a regular basis, anymore. I also said that I still repair for select customers.

A lot of this angst and anger could be dispelled if people like Bengal Stripe would read what they are responding to. Instead of kibitzing and jumping in to the middle of a conversations with snarky and ill-informed remarks.

Little hope or expectation in that regard...if the people involved, the short attention spans and the past is any indication

The shoe in the photo was not a Cheaney. I said this before to Bengal Stripe, if I'm not mistaken. There is no brand name visible in the photo (deliberate) but it is there on the heel pad. It was not Cheaney.

But that's beside the point, it could have been a Cheaney, it could have been an Edward Green, it could have been a G&G. The fact is that [COLOR=BF0000]there is no difference in the techniques used to put together a $100.00 GY shoe and a $1000.00 GY shoe[/COLOR]. Deal with it.

I do not claim to be at the cutting edge of repair but like anyone who actually works with his hands in this Trade rather than running off at the mouth about issues they know nothing about, I have a level of knowledge that few others will ever experience.

Where did I distort what you said, Nick? Quote me. I challenge you. Maybe I got it wrong...maybe I misunderstood your meaning --the unspoken meaning. Didn't you say " Of course hand stitched is better." I took your words at face value, how is that a distortion? I didn't add or subtract or redact anything. Either you said those words or didn't. Am I wrong to suggest that you just manage? I challenge you to get your hands dirty. To do the work for more than a day , more than a week, more than an amusing experiment in blue collar empathy. Confront the problems and look for solutions that your workers face. You might acquire the kind of credibility that an art historian, for instance, will never have.

Just like I challenge you and the others to do something but spew opinion and speculations and remarks not associated with what is being presented by others. Just like I challenge everyone of you to quote me saying that Goodyear is guaranteed to blow out or any comment that, in it's entirety and in context, suggest anything other but that I believe GY is a necessary expedient for some firms and some people. You all are search engine wizards...you have to be in the absence of honestly earned knowledge and experience...so have at it. Find that damning quote. If you can.

Otherwise it's just trolling.

All you fellows come here sniveling about how unappreciated GY is and how it's getting a bad rap. GY is what it is. I didn't make it that way, I didn't invent it. In all of this none of you have provided anything but excuses and contrived apologias for what every one of you admit is an inferior technique. Speculation, fantasy and wishful thinking. Nothing empirical, nothing evidential, nothing positive by way of input--just denial and accusation.

It's trolling. If there was ever a "circle jerk" it's this bunch.

The Wraith snivels about my remarks but the subject was revived by him and his cronies and the stark fact is that he, and they, are trolling.The opportunity to let this die has come and gone several times and they deliberately have jumped back in to provoke it. Back on page four I said I was willing to back out of this discussion. No direct response except more mindless provocation. Zombie apocalypse indeed.

It's trolling. He knows it, I know it, the dog knows it.

I say stick your heads back in the sand, boys, and shut your pie-holes if you have nothing to contribute... and this too will pass away.

Trolls...sheesh!

--

Yes, you did distort what I said in order to make your point. I printed it clearly and explained. If you didn't see it then you are simply guilty of what you accuse others of.....NOT READING. I don't have to show you. You can find it yourself if you're interested.
Yes, I am a manager. That's not an admission of guild. It's a fact I'm proud of.. Henry Ford was a manager. To say he didn’t know how to build an automobile would be at the very least naive. I would venture to say he knew more about what it took to build a car than some of his most talented engineers and mechanics. And, since you brought it up.....A few months ago huge major shoe factory was having a problem with a certain aspect of their production. Their best people could not find a solution to the problem. Top brass suggested they contact me to get my thoughts in terms of a solution. They explained the problem to me. I got together with my men, we exchanged ideas. A few days later I presented the company with our solution. WA-la...problem solved. They are using our ideas in their production as I type this. But what do I know, according to you I'm “just a manager”. I enjoy working with my men as much as they do working with me. We learn from each other almost every day. We are a team that constantly strives with the intent and focus of improvement. In order to stay that course we need to be open-minded. But, you being a one man shop, I can't expect you to understand that concept.
You're 100% correct. I don't get my hands dirty. I get my brains dirty. You're challenge of me getting behind the bench is immature and ridiculous from my view-point. I'll explain if you care to read and digest it.
1. I don't need to.
For what reason? To say I took up the almighty DW's challenge? Big deal.
2. If I got behind the bench business would suffer in other areas. That would cost me money. I'm in business to make money, not lose it.
Having two college tuition’s and mouths to feed my priories are there not with you.
As they say in Texas “that dog won't hunt”.

However, I have a challenge for you....One that won't cost you any money and will save you time.
That is, you have wined several times that this issue (the welt/gemming one) keeps getting re-visited. You mentioned that there were several chances to let it die but it keeps getting re-born.
My challenge to you is, you don't comment on this topic any further and I won't.

Let's see who flinches first Mr. “last word” addict.

 

[chogall]

Is DW in the "front line" of repairing shoes?

DW states, years ago to make ends meet, he used to do a bit of repair work. If he's done his last repair work some twenty years ago, how would he know the quality (or otherwise) of shoes that were produced in the last few years? Technology does develop, what was relevant back then might not be relevant any more. All his postings on the topic for the last 5 years or so, are illustrated with that same photograph of a Cheaney shoe (not really the "top maker" DW claims it is).

In the front line are the guys at Church's who repair some 500 pairs a week. They probably can tell you without taking off the sole, how the shoe will look inside. Maybe we should have a collection and send DW to the Church factory to record the state and the percentage of gemming failure on one day's repair work. Maybe we'll get a bit more than just anecdotal evidence.

But then, I somewhat doubt there is enough garlic and crucifixes around, which would make DW to venture into a shoe factory. (I bet, he has never seen a shoe factory from the inside.)

I been into a few shoe factories, except they don't do much or any recrafting at all...

Chogall, I think Nick, as a 3rd generation owner of a business repairing shoes, is more front line than a 1 person operation when it comes to the subject of gemming failure (note that I am not talking about the superiority of GY or handwelt). I am confident that Nick's business would see more volume of a GY shoes resole/repair in a month than that 1 person in a year. Eventhough he might not be directly repairing the shoes, if there are a high rate of gemming failure resulting in unrepairable shoes, as a competent business owner he would have been aware of the matter, no?

Just because you have recently joined the bespoke club and have been enlightened on handwelted shoes does not mean that other does not have the same or better insight as you. This is precisely the thing that irks me so much, so much so that I am posting in this thread. Tell me, before your enlightenment, did you wear GY welted shoes or just glued ones? If you did wear GY shoes, how many of them suffered gemming failure?

It is clear that nobody is saying GY is better or even as good as handwelt but why do certain individuals keep on harping on the issue? What people are saying is that gemming failure is not as FREQUENT as some makes it to be and by most people's experience here, including one who actually is in the trade of repairing shoes, that seems to be the case. Is this so hard to accept? Do we need to to appoint McKinsey to do a 3 year study to convince you? You chose to go handwelted, good for you. Why do you insist people buy handwelted shoes which either are at a price they are unwilling to pay or whose designs they don't like? For most people here, if there is an option for handwelted, with everything else ceteris paribus, I am sure they will go for it. But for those who chose GY with their eyes wide open, why is it such a problem for you?

Yes, I own and wear GY welted shoes. No, I do not know if they suffered gemming failure or not, since I neither have see-through x-ray eyes nor have the experience of Northampton shoe factory recrafting station workman. Neither am I thelonius or rogerp, who can actually determine gemming failure without opening up his shoes.

Whatever others choose to buy is none of my problem and certainly I am in no position to determine the rate of gemming failure on an aggregate basis. Neither are most on this forum. And unlike the drones who jump on fused suits or square toe shoes, I don't go in to different shoe threads and telling them their choice sucked. And if stating facts hurt someones feelings, my apologies.

 

[DWFII]



Yada, yada....

Well, aren't you a clever little fellow! One of those "damned if you do, damned if you don't" things, eh? Unfortunately, I don't care. I'm polite enough that when someone addresses me, I respond.

Then too, I like to let a feller go away knowing he was on my mind.

I don't know what you're referring to as far as distorting your words. I can't hear your brains rattle or read your mind, so implied or hidden meanings shall have to remain hidden. I asked because I wanted to know, that's all. You know (or maybe you don't) a "quest" for information?

"Getting your brains dirty," is that it? Sounds like the last refuge of someone who can't do, or is above, the work. By those lights, however, every time I modify a last to fit a customer--3D modeling / sculpture, or draw up a pattern for a shoe--math and geometry and more than a little aesthetic analysis...or even diligently go through and check my spelling when I am in a discussion with other people, I'm getting my brains dirty. Something I do every day, all night and each morning, in multiple disciplines--metal, wood, leather, organics. But I don't think of it as getting dirty, I think of it as using my brains. It's just another one of those skills associated with making shoes that people who don't deign to get their hands dirty, consider beside the point.

But dirty brains and clean hands make both useless simply because they are connected....you know, heart, hands, mind...or maybe only in some people.

The very beauty of a challenge is that it's not a not a demand. You can rise to the challenge or not... as is your nature.

--

 

[jssdc]

We could buy a shoe factory for three years of McK

 

[JubeiSpiegel]

This thread...

 

[RogerP]

However, I have a challenge for you....One that won't cost you any money and will save you time.
That is, you have wined several times that this issue (the welt/gemming one) keeps getting re-visited. You mentioned that there were several chances to let it die but it keeps getting re-born.
My challenge to you is, you don't comment on this topic any further and I won't.

Let's see who flinches first Mr. “last word” addict.

DW cede the last word? That will never happen - he's in love with the sound of his own voice. Addict is indeed an apt term.

Nick, most of us here understand fully that you are indeed well-positioned to comment on this issue. A number of forum members have made that point. Those who are emotionally invested in trashing GYW will never hear a contrary view no matter the source. At they will predictably attack the source due to an inability to address the substance of that view. But that doesn't mean that there isn't a segment of the forum membership that is both rational and open-minded and thus very much receptive to your input.

 

[TheWraith]



DW cede the last word?  That will never happen - he's in love with the sound of his own voice.  Addict is indeed an apt term.

Nick, most of us here understand fully that you are indeed well-positioned to comment on this issue.  A number of forum members have made that point.  Those who are emotionally invested in trashing GYW will never hear a contrary view no matter the source.  At they will predictably attack the source due to an inability to address the substance of that view.  But that doesn't mean that there isn't a segment of the forum membership that is both rational and open-minded and thus very much receptive to your input.

+1

 

[bengal-stripe]



Well, aren't you a clever little fellow!.................

Congratulations! - This vile and abusive posting must be an all-time low in the forum's history!!!

 

[DWFII]



Congratulations! - This vile and abusive posting must be an all-time low in the forum's history!!!

Oh! I thought that happened in that other recent thread where you accused someone of offending your delicate sensibilities--only to find out that you weren't offended at all. It was just selective outrage...and phony for all of that--at bottom, just another form of posturing.

"Do the name Ruby Begonia strike a familiah note?"

--

 

[TheWraith]

You may well be an excellent cordwainer, DWF, I'm sure you are, but for anything else, you lack the requisite skills to know when to let it lie. And I'm sure, just to prove me right, you'll let fly with another (invective filled?) post rather than just zip it...

 

[DWFII]



yada yada yada

Did I hear someone call my name or is that just flies buzzing?

My skills as a cordwainer are beside the point. You're the one that's pushing it and you have been for pages. You shut your piehole and I'll consider zipping it. How's that?

No promises though because I'm nothing, if not polite.

And always and ever responsive to my fellow creatures when they are in pain.

This discussion isn't about GYW or even about shoes. It never has been. You know it, I know it and the dog knows it...even if the rabbits don't know it.

It began as a provocation and became a circle-jerk, a rising tide of groupthink and dullard pettiness.

--

 

[TheWraith]

^ *sigh* you proved me right (as I knew you would).

 

[Nick V.]



DW cede the last word?  That will never happen - he's in love with the sound of his own voice.  Addict is indeed an apt term.

Nick, most of us here understand fully that you are indeed well-positioned to comment on this issue.  A number of forum members have made that point.  Those who are emotionally invested in trashing GYW will never hear a contrary view no matter the source.  At they will predictably attack the source due to an inability to address the substance of that view.  But that doesn't mean that there isn't a segment of the forum membership that is both rational and open-minded and thus very much receptive to your input.

Thanks...Just won a $100.00 bet that he couldn't last 24 hours refeining to my challenge. Sorry for my spelling, I'm not as polite as he claims to be.
We have all seen it before. Some can give it but can't take it when they get it back. Anyway I'm going to enjoy my porterhouse and wine tonight. So, I have to thank DW for that.....
Truth is I really respect his knowledge. I learned some things from him. He would learn some things from me if he wanted to. But, in order to learn you have to be open-minded.
Anyway.....I thought I would offer this for peace:

 

[barky]

Yes, I own and wear GY welted shoes. No, I do not know if they suffered gemming failure or not, since I neither have see-through x-ray eyes nor have the experience of Northampton shoe factory recrafting station workman. Neither am I thelonius or rogerp, who can actually determine gemming failure without opening up his shoes.

Really, x-ray eyes? I thought that gemming failure is so evil that it will render the shoe unrepairable so if all your recrafts came back, you can make the simple conclusion that none of your shoes experienced any failure, no? At the very least, if I send my shoe for a resole and if there is gemming failure, I would be informed by my cobbler accordingly and if it is repairable (I don't know as it has never happened to me before, all my shoes came back), will ask if I am acceptable to a higher fee for the additional work, no? Or do most cobblers/cordwainers just suck up the additional work required as cost of doing business and leave their customers none the wiser about the condition of their shoes gemming? Not trying to be smart, honest question.