Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Quarantanove, Apr 19, 2012.
Give it a rest and zip it, DW. Enough is enough.
You could have taken that to the mirror hours ago.
To repeat what I said earlier...put me on your ignore list if you don't want to hear what I have to say.
And because I'm fundamentally a polite person I'll also repeat--"please."
Again, I'm not surprised...at least you can have a meeting of the minds.
Good night, Gracie.
Hopefully we can get some more level-headed discussion now where GYW isn't the equivalent of the coming apocalypse. Roger P., thelonius and Nick have provided this so far.
Is that right? Tell us in detail how they have done that. Repetition and denial? Where is the logic and the rationale for any of the numerous, tedious, and carping dismissals.
Nick provided us anecdotal opinion. No photographs, no explanation of how he handles repairs that have gemming as the major structural element. Nevermind an analysis of how GY, with its materials and techniques, is as capable of withstanding the stresses of footwear made with techniques that you and he have already conceded is superior.
And neither Roger nor Thelonius...much less you, yourself...have provided even that much by way of support, hard evidence, or reason for your defensiveness. Both Thelonius and Roger have provided spotty and statistically insignificant anecdotes that they expect to be received as the word of god...no evidence, no experience, no logical sequence of events or set of details that support their remarks.
Thelonius dug this thread out of the ground with the sole purpose of creating a controversy. Roger is always gleefully ready to jump in and fan the flames.
I have provided analysis and rationales. I have detailed the techniques, the materials, and my experience of working with them over 40+ year--as many years of experience as Nick but in a far more intimately involved role. I have even provided photos. All of that has been ignored except to painfully (for all of us) extract the concession that handwelted is superior to GY but that GY is still good. Echoing...pathetically and belatedly echoing... what I've been saying here for years.
Which suggests to me that you're not reading the replies that you have invited...incited... either.
In point of fact, your comments in this post seem to have no other purpose than to provoke.
A troll by any other name.
Yes....I respect yours as well. I really don't have the time to litigate this issue. I only took a real quick look at some of the comments. I agree, we should all speak for ourselves. That includes you not distorting my comments. When you say "even Nick admits" thats a distortion. I have always said, yes it happens. It's not an admission, it's a statement of fact. Photos? I don't have time for lunch. If you don't believe what I'm stating from my experience don't acknowledge my comments.
I understand the rural vs. urban example. Funny though, I can't tell you how often peeps comment to me, I recently moved into the City and my shoes are getting eatin up.
I live in rural N.J. so I see both environments every day, literately bears at my doorstep on occasion when I leave for Manhattan. so your argument about that does not hold water to me. You are correct Sir I do not do the work but, I oversee it. I direct as needed. I teach as I was taught 3rd gen. many table time discussions. Managing people? Not simple.....That's part of what I do. So be it.
We Don't condemn shoes for the sake of it. Rather if you can't get the life of another set of uppers, on the soles we suggest against it.. Thats only fair to the customer.
To clarify.....We are seeing far more GYed welted shoes than ever before. Thats bc we specialize in that. High-grades.
For goodness sake, DW, you really do need to learn to zip it.
You're becoming worse than that 'used car salesman' from Elite Suits.
Thanks for chipping in again, Nick.
Geez...Is this worth it?
I'll send you a pm.
Bless your heart DWF, but I already knew this. I was only asking Quarantanove to clairfy his thoughts. You did his homework for him I enjoy your posts very much and thank you just the same
Well, stop provoking it then. Why provoke someone who has dedicated his life and soul to an rapidly disappearing craft? I mean we barely got any shoemakers in America, there's virtually none in Australia, and even the English makers are becoming mediocre if not sub par compare to the Asian ones. And its always an honor to have actual craftsman posting on this forum especially after we pissed off so many...
But hey, at least we are in the agreement that hand welted shoes has a better construction than goodyear welted shoes. And I think we are in agreement that gemming failures is an possibility however slim it could be.
I have no quarrel with anyone here but I find it very odd that people would try to undermine statements from Nick. He runs a business that directly deal with this issue and probably sees more volume than most of the bigger manufacturers and is probably the best placed source in SF to inform on this matter. Personally, I have been wearing welted shoes, GY or otherwise for a couple of decades and have experienced no gemming failure. Of course, most of my shoes have been resoled once or never.
By the way, for certain constructions, only the uninformed cannot tell the difference between hand stitched outsole or machine stitched outsole, Norwegian braided, blind welted, beveled waist, etc.
Nick's comment has weight, but he's not in the front line repairing shoes, is he? Or has him been collecting data specifically regarding gemming failures?
I mean, my alteration tailor would probably say the same thing regarding fused suits; he most probably see more and more fused suits and bubbling rarely happens. But that doesn't negate the possibly of bubbling happening or doesn't equate the quality of fused suits to hand padded suits.
I respect both Nick and DWFII and I make informed decisions based on their experience. I choose to go bespoke and hand welted MTO only; some multiple times the cost of the top line GY welted, some at the same price, some at less than half the cost. I am happy with my decision and I hope anyone else buying shoes is as well.
If you don't know how good hand welted shoes could be, just join some of the G&G bespoke or SC trunk shoes. Or go to your local John Lobb and see the bespoke samples. They are several magnitudes better than anything GW shoes imitations...
Is DW in the "front line" of repairing shoes?
DW states, years ago to make ends meet, he used to do a bit of repair work. If he's done his last repair work some twenty years ago, how would he know the quality (or otherwise) of shoes that were produced in the last few years? Technology does develop, what was relevant back then might not be relevant any more. All his postings on the topic for the last 5 years or so, are illustrated with that same photograph of a Cheaney shoe (not really the "top maker" DW claims it is).
In the front line are the guys at Church's who repair some 500 pairs a week. They probably can tell you without taking off the sole, how the shoe will look inside. Maybe we should have a collection and send DW to the Church factory to record the state and the percentage of gemming failure on one day's repair work. Maybe we'll get a bit more than just anecdotal evidence.
But then, I somewhat doubt there is enough garlic and crucifixes around, which would make DW to venture into a shoe factory. (I bet, he has never seen a shoe factory from the inside.)
Thanks again Nick. I appreciate your taking the time to set this matter right, but I understand well why you and others might feel reluctant to do so, given the predictable response of those who have an almost religious investment in condemning GYW shoes as structurally unsound wrecks waiting to happen. The inevitable sturm und drang from certain corners is tedious indeed. But let me assure you that it is worth your effort. When there is but one voice tirelessly bellowing the same misleading message, a great many will be misled - and have been. So please do continue - even if only occasionally - to weather the storm of personal attacks for the sake of bringing some balance and factual accuracy to issues such as this.
Odd indeed. And unfortunate. But not really hard to understand.
Provoking? That's rich. Shall I quote a sampling of the endless stream of scornful, derisive and abusive posts from your pet cobbler in this thread alone? It'd be awfully tiresome - what with my having to read them all again - but if it helps to acquaint you with reality I'm happy to put in the effort.
D - tell me again now who was distorting Nick's posts?
Cheers. I doubt the discussion will ever be level-headed for the reasons discussed above, but as long as some are willing to stand up to the bullying, it will at least be more balanced.
Separate names with a comma.