Shoemaking Techniques and Traditions--"...these foolish things..."

[DWFII]

Given a choice, and all other things being equal, I would always prefer to work with veg or chrome free leathers...simply for the sake of the health of the customer and, peripherally, my own.

But in all fairness chrome will stretch better than veg and is stronger than veg. It also...at least until recent times...is better able to accept dyes and finishes.

That said, there are tannages that are purportedly the equivalent of chromes which have no chrome. and advances in veg tannages are renewing interest in the possibilities of finish and strength. And to complicate matters even further some of the best leathers I've worked with...in my opinion...are retans--a combination of veg and chrome.

Comfort is in the skin of the wearer/eye of the beholder...but personally I would not wear any shoe that wasn't lined for anything but lounging around the house--a controlled and clean environment, IOW. And even there...always with socks. But that's just me. And down to my, perhaps, too intimate knowledge of leather and feet.

 

[PhilJB]

Your mention of retans provoked some searching of the internet on my behalf. I found some Horween retans which looking like they would be good for shoes - are these the ones you are referring to? Would I be right in thinking that the nasty chrome tanning chemicals which cause allergic reactions are no longer present by the time the hide has been through the vegetable stage of the retan process?

From what I read, it looks like the retan Horween leathers will have more stretch. This reminded me of the earlier posts I read in this thread about the seamless whole-piece shoes (including the beautiful ones you made). Does the lasting of these shoes become easier with the retan leather? I assume that all the stretching needed to create a seamless whole-piece shoe (and indeed boot as shown in one post) must have an affect on the integrity of the leather and wondered if such shoes are compromised by the extreme lasting (and would be better off with a seam) or if the leather is ok with such treatment?

 

[DWFII]

I've used Horween retans for a number of different kinds of shoes and boots. I just bought some retan for linings. But I've run across and used retans from other sources as well, notably water buffalo.

No, the chrome is still present but I think in smaller amounts.

If you ever wonder if a leather is chrome (or has chrome in it) burn a corner until you get a smouldering coal. Breathe on it for a while and then let it go out. If the ash, at the center of where the coal was, is green or turquoise, that's the chrome. Veg will caramelize and burn to a crispy black char...black, nothing else.

Retans don't necessarily have more stretch and of course, it comes down to "compared to what?" Chromes are generally more stretchy...all other things being equal...than veg tans. But you can compress the fibers of a veg together better so maybe it's half dozen of one and six of the other when it comes to whole cuts. Lasting is not the problem, however--it's the initial blocking which in this case is similar to lasting. In either case, the leather is seldom compromised--just the reverse--it is eliminating the visual evidence of the inevetable surplus that is the problem, and that has to be a combination of stretching and compressing.

 

[PhilJB]

A while back these pages had an interesting discussion on the subject of waxed calf, so its interesting to see that Baker are now producing waxed calf, available in black and brown. I wondered if this would make good shoes or perhaps boots for country walking, etc and also wondered about the practicality of shoes/boots made of this waxed calf?

The write up suggests that the leather would be "boned"... I imagine there might be alternative ways to treat the leather?

 

[DWFII]

I'd have to see and feel it but just from the photos and the descriptions it doesn't appear to be that close to the original wax calf.

First, it's a little thin. 1.5 mm (at max ) is at least .2 millimeters too thin for men's work....IMO. And originally it might have gone as thick as 3mm when used for men's unlined boots.

Second, the flesh doesn't look 'right.' The original stuff was waxed and 'sized'--it had a relatively hard and smooth surface as a result. Done right it could look like patent leather. "Serfs" (sic) and/or "household staff" would probably have used a sizing paste to restore that hard burnished surface--I doubt that a oily bone would have done right by the leather. But like anything else there are ways to do things and ways to do things.

From the photos, the Baker leather looks too rough to be a replacement for the original.

All that said, It's interesting and encouraging that someone is thinking along those lines. Horween has a similar product that is retan although the 'wax' is, AFAIK from talking directly to Horween, lacquer based. Crack carries (or did) the Horween as well.

 

[ntempleman]

Bakers have always made wax calf in light, medium and heavy weight, nothing new about it apart from the distribution channel. Any riding boot coming out of the west end over the past 50+ years will be Bakers

 

[ntempleman]

To bone it smooth you give you butler a bone and some “blacking”, a paste-y gloop of gunk that you pour on and bone in until the leather is smooth. Only then may you polish to a high shine

 

[DWFII]

Wondering if the "blackening" is a kind of sizing, or contains sizing paste?

From old recipes (200+ years, IIRC), waxed calf was always East India kip. It was 'hot stuffed' (by hand) and allowed to sit for up to a year to allow oils to 'gel'. Then it was 'defatted' so to speak, on the flesh side and lampblack rubbed into the fibers.

The sizing was similar to wallpaper paste and it was applied wet (or at least moist) and burnished (with a bone...albeit a dry bone) until it got the same kind of gloss that you can see on properly burnished outsoles.

By all accounts it was a dirty business and makers who worked with men's shoes or boots of waxed calf, were not allowed to work on women's shoes esp. if they were made of satin or other brocades.

 

[PhilJB]

Interesting. It's not on the Bakers website. Do Bakers produce other shoe/boot leathers that are not on their website? The Crack supped waxed calf is around 1.3-1.5mm thick - does that make it light, medium or heavy? Seems like it would be very light compared to the 3mm thick leather referred to above

 

[ntempleman]

Bakers can make a good few things not on their website, they’re an old school tannery producing for trade rather than a stockist or distributor. There’s standard things we buy for general west end trade that they don’t list online, and there’s the knowledge there to produce items they don’t keep in regular stock

 

[jiyaei99]

For sewing, I've visible special strategies. The latter of which is likewise used if makersstitching determine to welt all of the manner around or to connect rand with the aid of sewing.

 

[Aquafortis]

Just curious if the sole of this Bontoni appears to be a closed vertically cut channel?

 

[DWFII]

Hard to tell from a photo but I strongly suspect it is not vertically channeled.

 

[wurger]

I started wearing my Vass shoes again recently, I started to notice more things once I get over the euphoria of getting new shoes.

For the same pattern design, but on different lasts: Vass uses a higher quarter walls and a longer facing for one last (F), with the tongue very close to my ankle line.

The other last (U), the same pattern uses a lower quarter wall and shorter facing.

I personally prefers more upper wrapping around my feet, it feels there are more material to lock my feet inside, may be just psychological.

I personally don't have any bespoke shoes, but from reading reviews and blogs, I don't think I have read any mention of these design choices. Is it something the maker discuss with the client? And is there much benefit to a higher quarter and facing or vice verser?

 

[j ingevaldsson]

I started wearing my Vass shoes again recently, I started to notice more things once I get over the euphoria of getting new shoes.

For the same pattern design, but on different lasts: Vass uses a higher quarter walls and a longer facing for one last (F), with the tongue very close to my ankle line.

The other last (U), the same pattern uses a lower quarter wall and shorter facing.

I personally prefers more upper wrapping around my feet, it feels there are more material to lock my feet inside, may be just psychological.

I personally don't have any bespoke shoes, but from reading reviews and blogs, I don't think I have read any mention of these design choices. Is it something the maker discuss with the client? And is there much benefit to a higher quarter and facing or vice verser?

Most makers and brands are within a sort of standard range for these things which doesn’t affect much for most people, therefore not focused on in general. Not common that it differs within brands though, usually a brand has a set standard for these things.

I have my ankle bunions (or whatever the English name is, only know Swedish name) pretty low, especially outside one, which means I can’t have the quarters too high (for example haven never been able to wear any RTW from G&G or Meccariello comfortably due to this, they make patterns which are too high here). So when I order bespoke I always specify this.

Not as low as Cromptons bespoke Cleverleys though, don’t really know what they did here...

(picture from Permanentstyle.com)