Sealed with a "Kiss" - Operation Paprika

[fritzl]

Originally Posted by Mr. Moo

I don't like you one bit - not one bit - but that's a good post.

I wonder if luk-cha received a $2000 pair of G&G bespokes with such, ahem, wonderful workmanship, how would he perceive it?

thank you for pulling a moops,

we are all happy that some things in life are granted.

 

[Sterling Gillette]

apropos, I honestly don't get your point.

You seem to dislike Mr. Kiss' shoes for one reason or another -- fine, but why the urge to assure every (satisfied) customer and future client that they are stupid in liking what you don't like? How can you judge the quality of a pair of shoes you yourself have obviously never had in your hands and only seen in photos while at the same time pointing out that forumites who have already bought their pair of paprikas basically spent hundreds of dollars blindly because they only had pictures to judge the shoe?

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to persuade you to like what fritzl and I are selling, nor do I want to force you to understand why we are doing this. If you don't like or understand this project (which means a lot to fritzl and me since it represents our personal take on preserving traditional craftmanship for the generations to come), then don't buy these shoes. If you want factory approach to the making and finishing process, then don't buy these shoes. If for you price is a first and quality second consideration, then don't buy these shoes. But why the hate? Why do you feel the need to show everybody that only your opinion is valid? You mention the credibility of this forum. Don't you think the credibility of any forum is determined to suffer if one single person decides whether or not an opinion is valid or considered "rational"?

 

[apropos]

Originally Posted by Sterling Gillette

apropos, I honestly don't get your point. You seem to dislike Mr. Kiss' shoes for one reason or another -- fine, but why the urge to assure every (satisfied) customer and future client that they are stupid in liking what you don't like? How can you judge the quality of a pair of shoes you yourself have obviously never had in your hands and only seen in photos while at the same time pointing out that forumites who have already bought their pair of paprikas basically spent hundreds of dollars blindly because they only had pictures to judge the shoe? Don't get me wrong, I don't want to persuade you to like what fritzl and I are selling, nor do I want to force you to understand why we are doing this. If you don't like or understand this project (which means a lot to fritzl and me since it represents our personal take on preserving traditional craftmanship for the generations to come), then don't buy these shoes. If you want factory approach to the making and finishing process, then don't buy these shoes. If for you price is a first and quality second consideration, then don't buy these shoes. But why the hate? Why do you feel the need to show everybody that only your opinion is valid? You mention the credibility of this forum. Don't you think the credibility of any forum is determined to suffer if one single person decides whether or not an opinion is valid or considered "rational"?
Unless you guys are funnelling the money into a fund for future shoe craftsmen or something along those lines, as far as I can see there is nothing to preserve - the shoemaker in question has retired (I am happy to be corrected if I am mistaken). At the same time I understand though that Mr Kiss has some personal/financial issues, and I commend you both for helping him out in this aspect. My initial observations have nothing to do with opinion, only fact that is plainly visually evident - the broguing is crooked, the holes are not punched cleanly, parts of the shoe do not line up properly indicating either a mistake during the sewing or lasting stages. These are not the same as disagreements of styling, which are the disagreements we have had before on these shoes. What you draw from these facts then is opinion. Here is mine: For half a grand, I opine that these shoes are not worth the money as well-made shoes. But perhaps, with caveats, worth the money as a handmade product made in a traditional way. Confused? Let me explain: We enjoy artisan (non-machine) crafted things in part because of a 2 part equation: they are difficult to do well. It is not difficult to (say) last a shoe by machine - the machine does the thinking for you and you can train any man to do that quickly. But it is a LOT more difficult to do the same by hand - you need experience and talent. Ergo we value the hand-lasted shoe more. But at the same time, I do not think that something being 'handmade' should automatically equate to superior quality - and here enters the second part of the equation - the doing something 'well' bit. After all, is it not easier to hand-punch a line of broguing shoddily rather than well? When it comes to handmade shoes, it strikes me as though you all are focussing more on the handmade aspect rather than the shoe aspect. As a handmade product these undoubtedly stand in a class of their own, but as a shoe they fall down in several areas, as I have pointed out in my first post. Unless of course, you are postulating that it is somehow unreasonable to expect a handmade shoe to have regular broguing or parts that align properly by virtue of it being handmade. Which then, when you think about it, is implying that: yes - factory/machine made shoes can be better than handmade shoes.

 

[fritzl]

Originally Posted by apropos

Unless you guys are funnelling the money into a fund for future shoe craftsmen or something along those lines, as far as I can see there is nothing to preserve - the shoemaker in question has retired (I am happy to be corrected if I am mistaken). At the same time I understand though that Mr Kiss has some personal/financial issues, and I commend you both for helping him out in this aspect.

My initial observations have nothing to do with opinion, only fact that is plainly visually evident - the broguing is crooked, the holes are not punched cleanly, parts of the shoe do not line up properly indicating either a mistake during the sewing or lasting stages. These are not the same as disagreements of styling, which are the disagreements we have had before on these shoes.

What you draw from these facts then is opinion. Here is mine: For half a grand, I opine that these shoes are not worth the money as well-made shoes. But perhaps, with caveats, worth the money as a handmade product made in a traditional way.

Confused? Let me explain:

We enjoy artisan (non-machine) crafted things in part because of a 2 part equation: they are difficult to do well. It is not difficult to (say) last a shoe by machine - the machine does the thinking for you and you can train any man to do that quickly. But it is a LOT more difficult to do the same by hand - you need experience and talent. Ergo we value the hand-lasted shoe more.

But at the same time, I do not think that something being 'handmade' should automatically equate to superior quality - and here enters the second part of the equation - the doing something 'well' bit. After all, is it not easier to hand-punch a line of broguing shoddily rather than well?

When it comes to handmade shoes, it strikes me as though you all are focussing more on the handmade aspect rather than the shoe aspect. As a handmade product these undoubtedly stand in a class of their own, but as a shoe they fall down in several areas, as I have pointed out in my first post.

Unless of course, you are postulating that it is somehow unreasonable to expect a handmade shoe to have regular broguing or parts that align properly by virtue of it being handmade. Which then, when you think about it, is implying that: yes - factory/machine made shoes can be better than handmade shoes.

thank you for your obsdervations. we will work on this.

just in case, tell me your expertise in making shoes. that would be hlpful....

 

[fritzl]

apropos - which has his part in german.

you manage to spoil the historical win of Inter Mailand in the Champions League Final,

 

[luk-cha]

 

[Sterling Gillette]

apropos, I still don't get your point. Do you want me (or other reading these lines) to accept your opinion, built through a handful of photos and expertise gained through forum reading? Photos of details and fit have (in this forum) more than once proven to be less than helpful in judging quality of make and skill of a craftsman. To my eye, lik-cha's recent photos make this very clear. So, your point of poiunting out facts instead of mere opinion is at least to be called brave.

For "half a grand", you could do much worse in shoe buying (fact). I'd go as far as to say that for this amount of money, one would be hard pressed to find a similar shoe with a better value (opinion). But, to resort to spoiling the happy experience so many other have had with their paprikas makes you appear a bit, for lack of a better word, frustrated. Not wanting certain things for oneself is one thing, unwillingsness to accept other people being happy with what one does not want is another. Leaving out not one single chance to grunt about what others like is just sad.

As far as the "charity" component is concerned: If you don't understand or want to understand it, just leave it at that, but please don't ridicule it. As I have already said, nobody forces you to participate. But then, don't claim to be able to judge fairly.

I'm sorry if the above sounds a bit harsh -- I'm sure you will understand that your way of interpreting things here leaves me no options. I am still convinced that seeing these shoes and Mr. Kiss in his small workshop outside of the SF ghetto of perfectionism would make you rethink most of your statements here.

 

[binge]

Originally Posted by apropos

Well, given that all (?) of them were unable to view/handle the shoes prior to ordering,

All...not true. I totally DTO'd heismatt.

 

[apropos]

Originally Posted by Sterling Gillette

apropos, I still don't get your point. Do you want me (or other reading these lines) to accept your opinion, built through a handful of photos and expertise gained through forum reading? Photos of details and fit have (in this forum) more than once proven to be less than helpful in judging quality of make and skill of a craftsman. To my eye, lik-cha's recent photos make this very clear. So, your point of poiunting out facts instead of mere opinion is at least to be called brave.

For "half a grand", you could do much worse in shoe buying (fact). I'd go as far as to say that for this amount of money, one would be hard pressed to find a similar shoe with a better value (opinion). But, to resort to spoiling the happy experience so many other have had with their paprikas makes you appear a bit, for lack of a better word, frustrated. Not wanting certain things for oneself is one thing, unwillingsness to accept other people being happy with what one does not want is another. Leaving out not one single chance to grunt about what others like is just sad.

As far as the "charity" component is concerned: If you don't understand or want to understand it, just leave it at that, but please don't ridicule it. As I have already said, nobody forces you to participate. But then, don't claim to be able to judge fairly.

I'm sorry if the above sounds a bit harsh -- I'm sure you will understand that your way of interpreting things here leaves me no options. I am still convinced that seeing these shoes and Mr. Kiss in his small workshop outside of the SF ghetto of perfectionism would make you rethink most of your statements here.

I think the discussion re: skill with regards to work on the upper is a finished one that is self-evident through photos. Other than that, I have not commented on other issues of construction or fit, so your other points are moot. I hope they fit luk-cha well and that he wears them in good health.

I will admit to having at times made cheap comments about the styling of operation paprika shoes. This is something which I have purposely refrained from doing here, as it is wrong, and it was ungracious of me to have done so. In fact, it may sound odd coming from me, but the styling is beginning to grow on me...

I understand your frustration with what you describe as my being 'frustrated'. It can seem mean-spirited to be the fellow who wades in and breaks up a love fest.

But at the same time, I think this forum is at the very core built upon (or should be built upon) honest feedback, as opposed to blind groupthink. I understand perfectly the initial surge of joy on receiving something new and the anticipatory happiness of sharing a new acquisition on the internet, but at the same time I do not think these threads are very useful if all comments received are purely postive ones devoid of any sort of hoenst/useful feedback - hence my earlier concluding remark on this place resembling a frathouse, with everyone egging each other on.

Finally, perhaps it might be difficult to parse someone else's intentions over the internet via text, but I most certainly did not mean to refer to Mr Kiss' financial/personal difficulties in a disparaging manner.

Could you please comment on how the construction (not styling) in Mr Kiss' work differs from, say, Vass? I am honestly curious to know and IIRC you have experience with both, while I have only handled Vass shoes IRL. I will be doing the traditional SF pilgrimage of penance to Budapest at the end of the year to pay Vass a visit, and anticipate picking up a bordeaux austerity brogue.

And to conclude, once again - I hope they fit luk-cha well, that he is happy with them, and that he wears them in good health.

Originally Posted by binge

All...not true. I totally DTO'd heismatt.

I'll admit to pausing for a second at 'heismatt'.

(Poor bugger, that DTO.

)

 

[DWFII]

While I am not too enthusiastic about mismatched toe caps or rough stitching, honest feedback is too often a commodity in short supply here, even among (perhaps in this instance especially among) those who ostensibly and most vociferously advocate for it. The idea that the quality of any item should be judged upon superficialities such as these...or even the overarching styling or design choices that certain traditions imply...is simply ludicrous and exemplifies dis-honest feedback at its worst. I am not fond of the Austro-Hungarian style of shoemaking but that doesn't mean that it's not quality work. Quality is not...not...about the superficial. All that glitters is not gold. It is a harsh indictment when "style" becomes so divorced from substance that objective expediencies become benchmarks of aspiration. And in the context of making bespoke shoes--where feet might be different enough to distort any hoped-for symmetry--that very assumption only reveals the depth of ignorance of those who embrace it. In the absence of point-by-point comparisons and objective standards for quality for each segment of the Trade as a whole...based on Tradition and past performance...it is impossible, if not ignorantly presumptuous, to assert that factory made shoes can, as a matter of course, be better than handmade shoes. If you want to single out individual bespoke makers who fail to implement the traditional standards of quality or even prudent measures to ensure stability, longevity, and comfort, there will surely be those who fall short of the mark. But they no more represent the handmade tradition than Crocs represent the factory standards of Northampton. By any measure that takes into consideration respect for the materials; thoughtful considerations regarding strength, integrity and function; respect for the foot and foot health; respect for the Traditions; respect for honesty(in marketing if nothing else)...the best examples of factory made shoes cannot begin to match the best examples of handmade bespoke work.

 

[voxsartoria]

My poops are not long enough (duration-wise) to read some of the posts in this thread.

I am having a post-workout martini now, so I can probably work up the motivation to read the Treaty of Versailles level of discourse on shoes by the second.

Watcha think on the eggs...srambled or over easy with the grilled skirt steak?

Thank you.

BTW, in a few minutes, I am going to multi-quote the five longest posts in this thread and do a +1. This will be one of the more exciting moments, so if you have not gone to the lav yet, this would be a good time.

- B

 

[fritzl]

Originally Posted by apropos

I will be doing the traditional SF pilgrimage of penance to Budapest at the end of the year to pay Vass a visit, and anticipate picking up a bordeaux austerity brogue.

...and then you have a Vass? so what?

 

[Cary Grant]

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

My poops are not long enough (duration-wise) to read some of the posts in this thread.

I am having a post-workout martini now, so I can probably work up the motivation to read the Treaty of Versailles level of discourse on shoes by the second.

Watcha think on the eggs...srambled or over easy with the grilled skirt steak?

Thank you.

BTW, in a few minutes, I am going to multi-quote the five longest posts in this thread and do a +1. This will be one of the more exciting moments, so if you have not gone to the lav yet, this would be a good time.

- B

Poached quail of course...

I trust you did Burpees?

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[MalfordOfLondon]

The first rule of Operation Paprika: Don't question Operation Paprika.

 

[Mr. Moo]

Originally Posted by fritzl

thank you for pulling a moops,

we are all happy that some things in life are granted.

thank you for looking like an old gigolo