Race-identification question (title 7)

[globetrotter]

Originally Posted by dkzzzz

I can care less what some groups are doing. If your mother is not Jewish you are neither Jew nor Israeli. You actually have to prove your mother's nationality/ethnicity before you can be issued Israeli passport.

actually, not exactly - if you want to become an israeli citizen based on the law of return (which is by far the most common and easiest way) you need to prove that you have one jewish grandparent, or that you fall into the catagory of "jew" based on how it is calculated in your country of origin - if you are from widjetistan, and they consider you a jew becouse one of your great grandparents is a jew, then you are jewish enough to get israeli citizenship.

a lot of people want to change the law, but this is how it stands.

 

[dkzzzz]

Originally Posted by marc237

Wow, this was a surprising response. My family was intelligent enough to be able to differentiate between the anti-Semiticism directed at them by individuals and, therefore, never lost their sense of national identity. Of course, as to those Jews who were citizens of a state and subject to state anti-semiticism, the dissonance must have been rather profound.

As to those Jews who oppose the Israeli state, you are touching upon not an issue of self-loathing, but an issue of theological debate. Certain Jewish splinter groups are theologically opposed to a sovereign state of Israel, claiming that Jews must wait patiently for the Messiah before assuming political leadership in Israel. While this is not a view shared by the majority of Jews or Israelites, it does not make those who adhere to it self-loathers.

I am not referring to any theological debates , just plain and simple : Oh, we Jews are hurting Arabs and people talking about us. Let's hope this all goes away really soon." line of thinking, which is self-loathing and fear of prosecution. Since a lot of Jews feel that whatever is happening in Palestine reflects poorly on all of them.

Your family clearly realized that they are not Hungarians and that attitudes towards them are sanctioned at least in-part by state, yet you insists they felt that they are part of Hungarian nation? That is quite a dichotomy.

 

[RJman]

Originally Posted by globetrotter

if you are from widjetistan...
Hate those g*ddam widget jockeys.

 

[dkzzzz]

Originally Posted by globetrotter

actually, not exactly - if you want to become an israeli citizen based on the law of return (which is by far the most common and easiest way) you need to prove that you have one jewish grandparent, or that you fall into the catagory of "jew" based on how it is calculated in your country of origin - if you are from widjetistan, and they consider you a jew becouse one of your great grandparents is a jew, then you are jewish enough to get israeli citizenship.

a lot of people want to change the law, but this is how it stands.

I did not know that. My friend told me he had to prove his maternal Jewishness in order to immigrate to Israel.

That explains why there are so many Ukrainian anti-Semites walking around with Israeli passports.

 

[marc237]

Originally Posted by dkzzzz

I am not referring to any theological debates , just plain and simple : Oh, we Jews are hurting Arabs and people talking about us. Let's hope this all goes away really soon." line of thinking, which is self-loathing and fear of prosecution. Since a lot of Jews feel that whatever is happening in Palestine reflects poorly on all of them. Your family clearly realized that they are not Hungarians and that attitudes towards them are sanctioned at least in-part by state, yet you insists they felt that they are part of Hungarian nation? That is quite a dichotomy.
Wow. Okay, two things: 1. A political disagreement that many Jews have with Israeli state policies, even those Jews who are Israelis, is not self-loathing. Those Jews may prefer to reach different accommodations with Arabs and others, but they do not hate their Jewish identity. 2. You clearly either failed to read or understand my post. I never said that my family "clearly realized that they are not Hungarians". Rather, I said that they continued to identify themselves as Hungarian notwithstanding the anit-semitism they experienced. Evidently, unlike those whom you know, they were able to understand that their nationality and their identity as Jews were not mutually incompatible.

 

[marc237]

Originally Posted by dkzzzz

I did not know that. My friend told me he had to prove his maternal Jewishness in order to immigrate to Israel.

You might note that almost all assertions of absolute fact that rely on "my friend told me . . . ." as the evidentiary underpinning are inherently suspect.

 

[gdl203]

Originally Posted by dkzzzz

Correction: Religion that U are referring to is called: Judaism. Jew is a nationality.

Originally Posted by dkzzzz

I can care less what some groups are doing.

Originally Posted by dkzzzz

Jews are like Gypsies minus the horses.

Originally Posted by dkzzzz

If you are a Jew you are never an Italian or American or Argentinean.

Originally Posted by dkzzzz

Thinking you are American or Italian does not make you one. Jews are never really Italians

Originally Posted by dkzzzz

Self-loathing is very old and cherished Jewish tradition

Originally Posted by dkzzzz

I am not referring to any theological debates , just plain and simple : Oh, we Jews are hurting Arabs and people talking about us. Let's hope this all goes away really soon." line of thinking, which is self-loathing and fear of prosecution.

Reading your posts is a bit like staring into a bottomless pit. The only benefit of actually reading what you post is that it boosts my self-confidence.

Every time I read your inane, incomprehensible posts (and you seem to be shooting for a world record in this thread alone), it makes me want to call my mother and thank her for raising me with love and providing me a proper education. Thank you for that

 

[dkzzzz]

Originally Posted by marc237

Wow. Okay, two things:

1. A political disagreement that many Jews have with Israeli state policies, even those Jews who are Israelis, is not self-loathing. Those Jews may prefer to reach different accommodations with Arabs and others, but that do not hate their Jewish identity.

2. You clearly either failed to read or understand my post. I never said that my family "clearly realized that they are not Hungarians". Rather, I said that they continued to identify themselves as Hungarian notwithstanding the anit-semitism they experienced. Evidently, unlike those whom you know, they were able to understand that their nationality and their identity as Jews were not mutually incompatible.

I understood what you meant . But in my world it is called delusion especially if we are talking about social standing and constant harassment of Jews in Eastern Europe in the beginning of 20th century. That was the only way ,I guess to keep sanity or survive. Your grandparents might have thought they are Hungarians per se, but what counts is what Hungarians thought of them.

 

[dkzzzz]

Originally Posted by gdl203

Reading your posts is a bit like staring into a bottomless pit. The only benefit of actually reading what you post is that it boosts my self-confidence.

Every time I read your inane, incomprehensible posts (and you seem to be shooting for a world record in this thread alone), it makes me want to call my mother and thank her for raising me with love and providing me a proper education. Thank you for that

What all this emotional mess has to do with opinions or ideas? You want to feel emotional hug a kitten or call your mother.

 

[marc237]

Originally Posted by dkzzzz

I understood what you meant . But in my world it is called delusion especially if we are talking about social standing and constant harassment of Jews in Eastern Europe in the beginning of 20th century. That was the only way ,I guess to keep sanity or survive. Your grandparents might have thought they are Hungarians per se, but what counts is what Hungarians thought of them.


Counts for whom? Who the hell are you to say what counts for my family and their friends and neighbors?

What counted for my grandparents and their brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, etc, is what they thought of themselves. And, irrespective of whether you approve or not, they though of themselves, as did many of their friends and neighbors, as Hungarians and Jews. This was no different than my father -- he thought of himself as a Jew and an American notwithstanding experiencing anti-semitism while in the military. Really smart people work through the contradictions.

 

[dkzzzz]

Originally Posted by marc237

You might note that almost all assertions of absolute fact that rely on "my friend told me . . . ." as the evidentiary underpinning are inherently suspect.


You are right .
I based my argument on limited evidence.
My thinking was: Jews survived as ethos/phenotype because they were marring Jews only. Because only by having children with Jewish woman you can continue Jewish lineage and preserve your ethnic identity. Woman/mother was a link between generations of Jews, link that ensured continuity.

 

[dkzzzz]

Originally Posted by marc237

Counts for whom? Who the hell are you to say what counts for my family and their friends and neighbors?

What counted for my grandparents and their brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, etc, is what they thought of themselves. And, irrespective of whether you approve or not, they though of themselves, as did many of their friends and neighbors, as Hungarians and Jews. This was no different than my father -- he thought of himself as a Jew and an American notwithstanding experiencing anti-semitism while in the military. Really smart people work through the contradictions.

I meant no offense to you or your parents I used your argument to illustrate my point.

Counts for whom, you asked? Counts for their survival. German Jews might have thought they are Germans until they got escorted to the gas chambers.
That is why I say it is a dangerous delusion to think you are part of something while contineously being embarrassed and rejected by that entity.

It is to me an absurd, just like saying I am still best friend with A despite the fact that A continuously spits in my face and calls me names.
That is why it is more important what Hungarians thought of your g-parents than g-parents thought of themselves.

 

[marc237]

Originally Posted by dkzzzz

I meant no offense to you or your parents I used your argument to illustrate my point.

Counts for whom, you asked? Counts for their survival. German Jews might have thought they are Germans until they got escorted to the gas chambers.
That is why I say it is a dangerous delusion to think you are part of something while contineously being embarrassed and rejected by that entity.

It is to me an absurd, just like saying I am still best friend with A despite the fact that A continuously spits in my face and calls me names.
That is why it is more important what Hungarians thought of your g-parents than g-parents thought of themselves.


There is a real important fallacy in your analogy. My relatives did not choose to be Hungarian. They were raised for multiple generations. My father did not choose to be an American, he was born here. Your choice to be friends with an abuser is simply that - a choice. Moreover, many people, not just Jews, suffer horrible idignities at the hands of the country in which they live and do not repudiate their nationality. For example, Americans of Japanese ancestory did not cease to be Americans upon interment during WWII. Rather they remained, in their own minds, Americans, and worked within the system for redress

Of course, your use of Germany is somewhat one off; in the case of Nazi Germany, the State engaged in a mass extermination of many peoples, including Jews. Notwithstanding, many who survived continued to believe themselves to be Jewish as well as Germans, but could no longer tolerate the idea of living in the country and, therefore, never returned.

 

[Southern-Nupe]

Gdl,

When you put it in that context, the posts are outright hilarious.

 

[Piobaire]

This is more to GT than anyone else, but if you are an Israeli born Jew like GT, feel free to answer:

I can remember several years ago a few of my friends that had lived for awhile in Israel, that were several generation US Jews, very liberal, were part of this big hub-bub to fly into Israel and cast their votes in the elections, wanting to sway things their way. Now, I have two close friends that are Israeli born Jews. Their outlook on life and politics are just about diametrically opposed to the US Jews I know. So my question is, how do the people that are born and live in Israel feel about US Jews flying in to vote and/or interfering with your politics?