Tira and Clag Discuss #$&% Civilly I

[Caustic Man]

The take home:

We are dressing for other men.

Duh!

Women, I think, obviously dress for other women too.

 

[Claghorn]

Were we to keep on doing this, recommendations? Less talk? More pictures? More swears? More swears.

On a different note, perhaps we're over thinking the short jacket thing. It's more likely that he pulled from Asian tailoring (I asked around today, and Korean tailors, or at least some of them, have been cutting jackets that short for a while) or that he was just like "*******, short jackets" than the trend be indicative in some shift in our perception of male attractiveness.

 

[Academic2]

What an interesting thread. Thanks for starting it.

It raises a question that interests me very much: at what point would you stop holding on to your notion of what looks good in the face of a growing majority that says otherwise? It’s not a question about style per se, but how the individual relates to style (or fashion) change.

For example, regarding suits, I’ve resisted the trend toward what look to me like jackets and trousers that are way too short, even though it means going MTM. I wouldn’t want to be the last person on the planet to dress like I do, however. But I don’t know at what point I’d capitulate.

Cheers,

Ac

 

[sugarbutch]

Lapel width, hem length, closeness of fit, all of these are variables that have been played with before, and as long as there is a suit paradigm, they will continue to vary. The more interesting question, IMO, is whether wearing a suit at all will become anachronistic. Honestly, it's not a huge issue for me since I'm already over the hump into middle age and my leeway to wear what I want will only increase. But will everyone wearing a suit come to be viewed approximately as Tom Wolfe is today?

 

[in stitches]

just so no one calls me a liar, i have read this thread. i will comment at a later time.

 

[Tirailleur1]

Lapel width, hem length, closeness of fit, all of these are variables that have been played with before, and as long as there is a suit paradigm, they will continue to vary. The more interesting question, IMO, is whether wearing a suit at all will become anachronistic. Honestly, it's not a huge issue for me since I'm already over the hump into middle age and my leeway to wear what I want will only increase. But will everyone wearing a suit come to be viewed approximately as Tom Wolfe is today?

I am with you here. like the album format, people keep predicting the suit's demise and it just doesn't seem to happen. The issue stems from how limiting the language of western mens clothing is. Because of this the suits tends to attach itself to any evolution takes place within western culture. A new silhouette might be introduced sometime in the future, but I expect to see some from of suiting (may it be in blazer or some other casual iteration). Maybe all that might change with the globalization.

 

[Veremund]



On a different note, perhaps we're over thinking the short jacket thing. It's more likely that he pulled from Asian tailoring or that he was just like "*******, short jackets".

I've assumed that designers had seen how grossly oversized the typical, poorly-dressed man's suits were and decided to make slim tight jackets the new fashion, thereby resulting in having the the average joe size down his clothing to get closer to his correct size. I believe the man on the street today is less likely to be in an oversized jacket than he would have been 5 years ago.

 

[Claghorn]

I've assumed that designers had seen how grossly oversized the typical, poorly-dressed man's suits were and decided to make slim tight jackets the new fashion, thereby resulting in having the the average joe size down his clothing to get closer to his correct size. I believe the man on the street today is less likely to be in an oversized jacket than he would have been 5 years ago.

That would account for how fitted the jackets are, which cycles pretty regularly across decades. It probably wouldn't account for the length.

I am with you here. like the album format, people keep predicting the suit's demise and it just doesn't seem to happen. The issue stems from how limiting the language of western mens clothing is. Because of this the suits tends to attach itself to any evolution takes place within western culture. A new silhouette might be introduced sometime in the future, but I expect to see some from of suiting (may it be in blazer or some other casual iteration). Maybe all that might change with the globalization.

On a different note, perhaps we're over thinking the short jacket thing. It's more likely that he pulled from Asian tailoring (I asked around today, and Korean tailors, or at least some of them, have been cutting jackets that short for a while) or that he was just like "*******, short jackets" than the trend be indicative in some shift in our perception of male attractiveness.

Kobe!

Concerning the demise of the suit: yes, there has been a push towards casual. But the internet provided some sort of counter push with the suit as a medium of either expression or as a hobby. I imagine the former is the more powerful force. Alas.

 

[Victor Elfo]

Now, that's something that I can contribute.
Globalization? Today we live in a deglobalization, as many (many) scholars identify the 2000's crisis as the turning point on the process of liberalization that had been accelerated after the end of the bipolar conflict. What you're getting at, Claghorn, is known in the academy as a process of change in the international order, which starts with the economic aspect. As the Asia's GDP becomes larger and larger, the other power aspects increases together. So, the influence that you're getting at, Claghorn, is a good hypothesis, IMO.
The demise of the suit, if it's going to happen, will be caused by a major change in the international order. For example, if China does becomes an hegemony, we'll probably have as much cultural influence as we've now from the USA. But, hey, an oncologist sees cancer.
Nice thread, BTW. I'd only be careful with the use of the word "evolution" when it comes to social matters, it's a thesis that has been abandoned after the Second World War and it's viewed as xenophobic today, but I know that you didn't mean it that way.

 

[in stitches]

Holy ******* **** I just typed out an essay and chrome crashed. I want to ******* kill some one.

 

[Caustic Man]

^^^ LOL you're still using chrome?

 

[black_umbrella]



^^^ LOL you're still using chrome?

It's pretty good and for us mac users, waaaayyy better than safari.

 

[in stitches]

Here goes again.

I found the OP to be a very enjoyable read. I think though, that when it comes to criticizing and critiquing, it becomes very difficult to standardize it in any way, because there is such a wide range of subjects to whom you may be directing criticism or critique, and its highly important to consider that when making ones comments.

On the extremes, you have two groups. One the one side you have the person who does not give a rats patootie about fashion or style. He wants his clothing to be functional, comfortable, affordable and presentable. On the other hand, you have the person who wants to be as current as possible. His concerns are only what is the latest trend and what is on the covers and pages of the latest issues of his favorite style publications.

For all intents and purposes, I think you can really leave these two groups out of the equation. They know exactly what they want, and do not really have much interest in hearing otherwise, and so is there right.

Then I think you have the middle ground, which I would also break down into two categories. I am sure you could break it down further, but that becomes overly tedious in my opinion.

1. You have the person who leans far more towards looking good now, but not to the exception of disregarding any notions of past considerations of what would be considered looking good, or dare I say, "tasteful." In todays day and age, one would probably call that #menswear for the most part. He probably wants lapels that are narrower and jackets and pant cuffs that are shorter, and as the winds of fashion change, so do most such similar desires.

In all honesty, I get it. There is what to be said for the appeal. When I scroll through my tumblr feed and see a handsome celebrity wearing a parka with a fur lined hood over his slim fit suit, or some tall Italian looking dude in his recent Pitti gear, I get it. I understand that vibe and why it is appealing. Its not functionally how i dress for the most part, but I understand it. And I honestly think that within what is considered stylish now, a lot of it looks good.

While I understand what Clags means when he says he wants to able to look at pictures of himself twenty years from now, and now have a wtf reaction, I also understand why one would not want to sacrifice looking current just for future considerations of how his present look may seem in the rear view mirror. And should one look back at old pictures with some feeling of chagrin, at least it will be tempered with the knowledge that at the time, he looked good.

In my opinion, within that arena there is plenty of room for success and failure. Usually depending on whether or not the wearer has "overdone" it, or whether or not the items they put together make any sense at all. And hopefully, a person who has these goals in mind, will be open to critique and criticism regarding his mode of dress, and whether or not he is succeeding in his goals.

2. You have the person who wants to look "classic" and "timeless." He is not concerned with what may or may not be trending now, as a matter of fact, he likely looks down on it. The proportions of his jackets and pants are fairly staid, nothing particularly stand out-ish. He wears few, if any, accessories, and those that he does are probably very sedate. For the most part, I would say that is how I at least attempt to dress, with the exception of some things that I fancy, that I know will probably be outdated rather soon.

This person will, if he is succeeding, pretty much always be considered well dressed, even by group #1, but will rarely be considered "stylish." He will strike many as looking like an old man. However, he does not care because he believes, and with fair reason, that what he is wearing now is enduring, and will always be perceived as looking good. He will get plenty of compliments that probably sound like, "you look great!" or "always looking good, man." But he will never be "that guy." And he is fine with that.

Once again, there is plenty of room for success and failure within these borders. Just because you want to look "classic" does not guarantee you will look good. This person should also be open to critique and criticism. Most of it will probably boil down to whether or not his combinations are cohesive, regarding colors, patterns, scale, textures and formality. Such things tend to govern whether or nor he is succeeding in his goals.

Certainly within both groups you have each persons own personal tastes, but such tastes should all be within the confines of succeeding within the general look one is hoping to accomplish.

Therefor, it is my opinion, that it is paramount to consider, when giving any critique and criticism, the goals of the person you are talking to. There is no point in telling someone that veers towards what is "current," that his clothing is not "classic" enough. As well, there is no point in telling someone whose goal it is to look "classic" that he looks like an old man. Both goals are quite valid as far as I am concerned, and all that matters is, is the person accomplishing his goals as he strives to look good within the vibe he is shooting for. And if he is not, hopefully he will be open to any and all critiques and criticisms that would push him in the direction of success.

 

[in stitches]



^^^ LOL you're still using chrome?

LOL yes

It's pretty good and for us mac users, waaaayyy better than safari.

this

 

[Caustic Man]

It's pretty good and for us mac users, waaaayyy better than safari.

Bollocks.