MC General Chat

[dieworkwear]

Think so? I wouldn’t go that far. The Ivy Style folks can be quite whack-a-doodle in many ways and Wooldridge doesn't strike me in that way. Never noticed him to go full-Chensvold and start bemoaning Prep fertility and such!

If you read the comment section, and even Chens' own writings, it's the same strand of moralism, grumbling about the modern world, phony romanticization of the past, and Victorian respectability, etc.

Edward Carpenter, a socialist and gay rights/ animal rights activist at the turn of the century, pointed out that all that respectability stuff is just a cover-up for class posturing. And that Victorians weren't really kind at all, but rather terribly judgemental and exclusionary. Guys like Wooldridge, to me, seem to mistake the substance of real consideration for other human beings with the superficial stuff like what kind of hat are you wearing, whether you dress in a way he prefers, or whether someone puts their elbows on the table (a good rule if someone else is sitting next to you, as you don't want to crowd them out, but otherwise a dumb Emily Post type rule for people who like to clutch pearls and signal high society belonging in ways that don't matter).

 

[smittycl]

If you read the comment section, and even Chens' own writings, it's the same strand of moralism, grumbling about the modern world, phony romanticization of the past, and Victorian respectability, etc.

Edward Carpenter, a socialist and gay rights/ animal rights activist at the turn of the century, pointed out that all that respectability stuff is just a cover-up for class posturing. And that Victorians weren't really kind at all, but rather terribly judgemental and exclusionary. Guys like Wooldridge, to me, seem to mistake the substance of real consideration for other human beings with the superficial stuff like what kind of hat are you wearing, whether you dress in a way he prefers, or whether someone puts their elbows on the table (a good rule if someone else is sitting next to you, as you don't want to crowd them out, but otherwise a dumb Emily Post type rule for people who like to clutch pearls and signal high society belonging in ways that don't matter).

I don’t read Ivy Style anymore and it was the comments section that drove me away when I figured out who the audience was so I agree with you there.

I can read guys like Wooldridge and fence off some of their prejudices if I agree with the main points. Frankly, I expect the seniors at The Economist to be somewhat classist. I think it’s okay to filter as long as the writer isnt a jack-booted thug with a nefarious agenda. I doubt I’ll ever read the collected works of Stephen Miller for example.

Did you read the New Yorker’s recent takedown of the Economist? They do make some excellent points.

Liberalism According to The Economist

Founded in 1843 to spread the doctrine of laissez-faire, the magazine has wielded influence like no other. But at what cost?

www.newyorker.com

 

[dieworkwear]

Did you read the New Yorker’s recent takedown of the Economist? They do make some excellent points.

Liberalism According to The Economist

Founded in 1843 to spread the doctrine of laissez-faire, the magazine has wielded influence like no other. But at what cost?

www.newyorker.com

That was a good read, thanks.

 

[clee1982]

I knew next to nothing, went bespoke, had no frustration, and came out with my best clothing. It all comes down to how good the tailor is at figuring out what you actually want/need.

dare I say you got lucky? the guy realize he truly love spalla camicia 2 years later (and no way ahead of time) might be disappointed at his Gives and Hawks no matter how well it fit

 

[clee1982]

I would agree with that. When reading that magazine it’s good develop the ability to tune out the finger wagging and pay attention when the “whiff of Empire” is deployed. That said, I remember liking his turn as Lexington before as knew who he was since they don’t use bylines.

Sometimes, rarely, a little finger wagging is called for. Quite subjective of course.

it's an "English" publication what do you expect ?

 

[clee1982]

The first series of questions from my tailor was actually an hour long conversation about what I do for a living, what I do for fun, what styles appeal to me, and a bunch of other personality exploring conversation. At times when I’d say “I’m thinking about ___” the response was typically “you should look at ___.” Often the thing I was guided to was different then what I had suggested, but I was gently steered towards choices that fit my personality and my life. I’d recommend that experience before buying anything OTR, but I get that there are few tailors at this level.

this is despos? I would think non of the English/French/Italian major house would have gone that way? And even if he is good at probing, he can't read every guy's mind, some will succeed some will fail

 

[dieworkwear]

dare I say you got lucky? the guy realize he truly love spalla camicia 2 years later (and no way ahead of time) might be disappointed at his Gives and Hawks no matter how well it fit

The only thing someone needs to know when going into bespoke is how to select a tailor. A lot of that has been laid out for people here.

 

[clee1982]

The only thing someone needs to know when going into bespoke is how to select a tailor. A lot of that has been laid out for people here.

I guess my question is without some prior experience I’m skeptical how you would know who to choose? I didn’t have a strong stylistic preference when I started for sure (now I do), so guess I would be morph to or I would find that first commission not what I eventually want?

 

[Veremund]

However - and as a dude in my 40s I'm likely way off - but the 20 year olds that I talk to that are into clothes don't have that as much, being raised in a society where clothes aren't reflective of who you are.

I’d also argue that a kid in his 20s doesn’t really know who he is anyway.

 

[emptym]

Sounds like there are many ways up the mountain. Or many mountains, however you want to think of it. There's risks and rewards to going bespoke early. From what people have said, it seems the key is knowledge, either one's own, a relative's, or the tailor's.

Anyone able to get Despos as a first tailor would be very lucky. But you can do OK with other ones, even cheap ones. I got my first custom suit at 23 in Thailand for about the price of a suit from Sears. I wouldn't make the same style choices now, but I enjoyed getting it and used it for about ten years. I got everything I wanted: Oxford gray with some heathering, peak lapels, 3 roll 2.5, ventless, with a vest and two pairs of pants, both with double, inward facing pleats, full legs with a pretty strong taper, and one with cuffs, one w/o. 22 yrs later, I would still wear it, if it fit and I hadn't given it away. But again, I wouldn't get about a few of the stylistic details.

 

[dieworkwear]

Sounds like there are many ways up the mountain.

Many ways up the mountain, but at the top of the mountain is Will with his €450 drink tab

Maybe not the right place for it, but my A Suitable Wardrobe Will story, while i'm thinking of it...

Years ago I happened to be in a particular Italian city at the same time Will was in that city, so I sent him an email asking if I could buy him a drink and chat. He agreed to meet, but he gave off enough an impression of reluctance that I wrote back offering to cancel. He said it would be fine as long as we could meet at the hotel bar where he was staying. He wasn't feeling well. He was very tired. No problem.

I had very little money at this time, so I had to walk instead of taking a taxi. This hotel was way out there, and up at the top of a small mountain. I arrived very late. I had no phone to send Will a message, so he had been waiting alone at the bar for a long time. The bartender was kind of cleaning up around him. He let me know how annoyed he was, (fair), we talked for a bit, and then he said he was feeling too tired to go on. He had to go to sleep. I apologized for my lateness, thanked him profusely for meeting with me, and offered to get the drinks. The bartender brought me the check and it was like, €450 or something. I did not own €450. At this moment I maybe owned €35.

I sat there looking at my options while Will gathered himself to leave. I realized I had no choice-- I had to tell him, while he was on his way out of the room, that I did not own €450, and that I could not, in fact, get the drinks. I had to actually hand him the bill while he looked at me. The whole time he didn't say anything. And then he had to wait around for the bartender to return. I lingered, because it just seemed too rude to leave. We stood there in silence together for a minute, and then he said something like, "what are you still doing here". I'm sure he's forgotten about it, but I still get sweaty remembering this mortifying occasion.

 

[clee1982]

that is a glories story...

 

[Hellbent]

If you read the comment section, and even Chens' own writings, it's the same strand of moralism, grumbling about the modern world, phony romanticization of the past, and Victorian respectability, etc.

Edward Carpenter, a socialist and gay rights/ animal rights activist at the turn of the century, pointed out that all that respectability stuff is just a cover-up for class posturing. And that Victorians weren't really kind at all, but rather terribly judgemental and exclusionary. Guys like Wooldridge, to me, seem to mistake the substance of real consideration for other human beings with the superficial stuff like what kind of hat are you wearing, whether you dress in a way he prefers, or whether someone puts their elbows on the table (a good rule if someone else is sitting next to you, as you don't want to crowd them out, but otherwise a dumb Emily Post type rule for people who like to clutch pearls and signal high society belonging in ways that don't matter).

I am pretty sure people were just as judgemental and nasty back then as we are today. What was good about etiquette was that it helped people with not so good manners to act civil toward others, even though they basically were following a formula. If you, for instance, always refrain from putting your elbows on the table when eating, then the chance that you will remember to do so when it matters increases. These rules were of course not particularly useful for people who always acted in a kind and caring way, since they anyway would know to do the right thing. Today I find myself longing for this "phony" kindness, instead of the honest nastiness people feel entitled to spew out.

 

[dieworkwear]

I am pretty sure people were just as judgemental and nasty back then as we are today.

I think the world has gotten kinder if only by virtue of it becoming more inclusive and tolerant. That seems to be a much more meaningful measure of how considerate you are of other people. The other stuff mistakes superficial mannerisms for consideration, which may not even be a meaningful measure for anything as we live in increasingly more multicultural societies.

 

[Hellbent]

I think the world has gotten kinder if only by virtue of it becoming more inclusive and tolerant. That seems to be a much more meaningful measure of how considerate you are of other people. The other stuff mistakes superficial mannerisms for consideration, which may not even be a meaningful measure for anything as we live in increasingly more multicultural societies.

I'm not entirely convinced that we deep down really are, more inclusive and tolerant. We still fight wars just as brutally and for the same selfish reasons as we ever have. Political debate does not shy away from lies and personal insults. But sure if we look at things like the legal system and the abolishing of "race laws", then you are right. Though some would argue that this too is superficial and that the everyday racism is just as prevalent now as then. Personally I am not affected so I cannot judge.

You seem to take the stand that manners and etiquette are superficial, and therefore does not matter. I am of the opposite opinion. Most if not all "rules" regarding manners tries to answer the "what is the kindest most respectful"-way of executing this act question. How does one exit an elevator? Should one let the really old woman out first? Yes, it's obvious, because it's kind, it's good manners, and it's etiquette. Do I ask someone to pass me the salt, or do I just reach over the table and grab it? I ask for it, because otherwise I risk spilling the wine of my neighbour as I reach, and that would be inconsiderate. Again, manners and etiquette make life a bit easier for the people around me, and that is not a bad thing.

Do I insist to be allowed in to a restaurant even tough I'm in short pants and this violates the dress code. No I don't because this would be disrespectful to the people running the place as well as to all the guests.

Being respectful and civil to each other should not cease to be important even in a multicultural society. Just my opinion.