Is there a market for high-end shoes in Toronto?

[TRINI]

Originally Posted by wetnose

Ignorance plus rich customers = opportunity for the vendors. I was quoted Edward Greens MTO at $1,600 from L'Uomo in Montreal.

Doesn't have to be ignorance.

The same way some people prefer to buy RTW because they know what they're getting and can get it now, some would prefer walking out of the store with a pair of shoes they like instead of waiting 3-6 months.

And are willing to pay a premium for it.

I still don't think there's a sizeable enough market for high-end shoes here in TO. At least, not enough for an entire store like Leffot to survive.

 

[Master-Classter]

maybe with a bit of trickle in through places like Brooks (Peal), and then Nomad (Alden), and then Get Outside (Red Wings, Weejuns), etc eventually there'll come a bit of a tipping point.

 

[TRINI]

Originally Posted by Master-Classter

maybe with a bit of trickle in through places like Brooks (Peal), and then Nomad (Alden), and then Get Outside (Red Wings, Weejuns), etc eventually there'll come a bit of a tipping point.

Perhaps - but look how small the selection is at those places.

Also - the whole Alden at Nomad thing is misleading.

Those Aldens are more geared towards SW&D and that market has traditionally been willing to bear those prices.

I'd be curious to know what BB's shoe sales numbers look like.

That being said, I can only assume that Robert Green did some sort of research before deciding to bring in Edward Greens.

 

[ktrp]

I think there is a bit of an issue where small market means retailers need even higher margins to stay in business, which makes the market even smaller.

That said, the global 'high end' shoe market is small and shrinking, especially outside of europe. There is a reason there are no north american makers other then Alden and AE left.

I am told there is a bespoke shoemaker in kensington market (I believe), but he has no web presence. Some posts I saw on another board suggested he likely provided bespoke shoes at sub C&J prices.

That said, given Lobbs, EGs etc. are available in Toronto, apparently 'there is a market for high-end shoes' in Toronto. But not a very competitive one, and it will likely never be so.

What's sad to me is the lack of selection in the $200-$400 range, where a lot of decent brands exist but are virtually unavailable here.

Realistically though, if there was still a decent market for that stuff, Florsheim and J&M would still be producing decent shoes and Florsheim would still have stores here. (As would Dack's). These places are gone because the average businessman today wears corrected grain rubber soled shoes and is happy that they don't need to be polished.

 

[Marcellionheart]

I have spoken with both the staff at Robert Jones and Nomad about this question because it is one that intrigues me about this place which I find myself in now. Trini has hit the nail on the head with Nomad; that place is for expensive SW&D stuff. They only stock Indys and the NST AWW and, in the fall, they had some Tricker's Stows in. They agreed with me on the utter lack of quality shoes in Toronto and pinned the blame on retailers failing to stock it. The (until recently) very high price of importing had caused several brands to fall off the radar.

The staff at Robert Jones, however, pinned the blame more on the education of the consumer. I was assured that there were plenty of people with plenty of money to drop on clothes and shoes but that the customers was not educated enough to value an EG shoe over a Canali shoe despite similar price points and markets on occasion.

I'd like to think it's a combination of both and, if the Canadian dollar remains high for the next few years, you might start to see more excellent brands in the city. Fortunately, for me, however, I happen to have reason to visit NYC at least twice a year now that I've moved to Toronto and will be paying my first visit to Leffot and Moulded Shoe in an attempt to get myself fitted for some Aldens and will source from back home any English shoes I require.

 

[Doc4]

Originally Posted by eg1

Fine American and English shoes are just not very much upon the radar, and with the demise of Daks, the trend is spiralling downward.

As others have said, if there WERE a market for high-end shoes in Toronto (and other major Canadian cities ... it's not always all about Toronto!! ... then Dack's would still be in business making the great shoes they did decades ago.

Originally Posted by Nicola

You've got a whole thread with people whining prices are too high and you want them to go direct and pay FULL retail? In England??? Give your head a shake.
ftfy

Originally Posted by Bill Smith

The real challenge is outside of Toronto, Montreal, Calgary and Vancouver most people would not be interested in dropping $600+ Cdn on shoes. The crap sold at Browns is "good enough" even though it's pretty much disposable.

Almost anyone outside the major few cities you mentioned (and a majority of those who are IN those big cities) would cringe at spending over $60 on a pair of 'dress shoes', let alone $600. Depending on your age, either Aldo or Hush Puppies IS high-end shoes.

Originally Posted by DWFII

Judge for yourself...how many Torontoians (?) Torontans (?) Torontians (?) even know that there is, much less seek, bespoke shoes in Toronto?

Toronto has at least one if not several good and dedicated makers.

If there's no market for bespoke how can there be a market for "high-end" shoes...no matter how you define "high-end?"

Bespoke is high-end.

You seem to be arguing in two directions at once ... I'm not sure if you mean to say that there IS a market for high-end shoes in Toronto because there are a couple cobblers there ... or if you mean that there IS NOT a market because Torontonians don't know that there are cobblers in town.

(And if nobody knows that there are cobblers in town, how do they stay in business?)

You are right to remind us that bespoke shoes are high-end, but it's a bit different from the 'factory high-end' shoes everyone else has been talking about. Those cobblers probably stay in business by repairing factory-made shoes, and get the odd order for bespoke from time to time, but without the repairs they are toast. Cobblers in Toronto no doubt suffer from the Canadian Inferiority Complex ... if I want a "good" bespoke suit or boot I go to Saville Row or Northampton ... and anyone who is trying to offer that sort of service locally is obviously not very good (the assumption goes) ... because if you WERE that good you'd be somewhere better.

So bexpoke anything is viewed with trepidation by the local consumer ... even before they know the first thing about the maker apart from his geographic location.

Now, to open a 'factory high-end' shoe shop in Toronto ... not only does one have a very small market, but the costs are high. You have to rent a nice shiny storefront in the expensive high-end shopping district. Everyone in your potential marked assumes that (a) your prices are inflated like they always are in Canada and (b) your product selection is pathetically slim.

So nobody comes to by your shoes.

So you have to keep your on-hand stock low and your prices high for the few poor suckers who don't have the internet at home and can't google "pediwear".

 

[Odd I/O]

Originally Posted by Marcellionheart

I have spoken with both the staff at Robert Jones and Nomad about this question because it is one that intrigues me about this place which I find myself in now. Trini has hit the nail on the head with Nomad; that place is for expensive SW&D stuff. They only stock Indys and the NST AWW and, in the fall, they had some Tricker's Stows in. They agreed with me on the utter lack of quality shoes in Toronto and pinned the blame on retailers failing to stock it. The (until recently) very high price of importing had caused several brands to fall off the radar.

How much were the Alden Indys going for at Nomad? Are they reasonably competitive with US pricing?

 

[shudder]

The Indys go for CDN $495, I believe. What's that, about 70 bucks more expensive than US MSRP?

 

[Odd I/O]

Originally Posted by shudder

The Indys go for CDN $495, I believe. What's that, about 70 bucks more expensive than US MSRP?

When you factor in shipping costs/brokerage fees that's actually not too bad. I wonder if they'll eventually carry cordovan boots.

 

[Duder]

Maybe I'll throw in my 2 cents, and just take it with a grain of salt

the way I see it,
Canada is either you have big $$$ or you don't
either you're taxed to death or you're catching all the tax breaks

simply I think the the middle class is sort evaporating,
that's why either you see cheap Aldo shoes or $3000 Bontoni's
and no real middle ground

so I have to think the average household doesn't have that much dispoable $$ at the end of the day

just my 2 cents

 

[TRINI]

Originally Posted by Odd I/O

I wonder if they'll eventually carry cordovan boots.

Those'll probably be a $1K+ - I can't see the SW&D crowd in TO paying that.

Also, cordovan is hard to explain to the layman...premium price, horsehide, don't polish regularly, etc, etc.

 

[Geoff Gander]

Hmmmm...ever since I joined SF I notice shoes. When a man walks down the street, I check his soles. If I see leather, I look more closely, and see if I can ID the maker. AE soles are easy to spot - I see a couple of pairs of those on the streets of Ottawa every day. I also see quite a few unidentifiable goodyear-welted soles on older men (probably old Dack's). Some lasts look more elegant, and coupled with a leather sole I'm pretty sure I've spotted quality English shoes a few times. Black oxfords are the most common style, by far.

Plus, there are all those $300-400 "Italian" shoes (the ones with glued-on soles and Italian labels - but which at best are "designed" in Italy - sold in tiny downtown stores with names like "Alberto Rossini", "Armen" and the like - next to the $800-1000 "Italian" suits). I suspect that the wearers (young hipsters), are not as rich as they want you to believe.

All this to say that I don't think the majority of urban Canadians are necessarily as cash-strapped as you might think, Duder. I believe it's more a case of ignorance, and convenience. Why save up for a good pair of shoes, when I can buy something cheaper and use the remaining cash to buy some gadget I want? Besides, they would say, it's just shoes, and you'll just throw those away next year, right?

It's also priorities - I think most Canadian men would be happy to drop $X thousand on a plasma screen TV, a car accessory, or season tickets to the Sens, Leafs, or whatever other hockey team they like.

 

[Geoff Gander]

Originally Posted by TRINI

Also, cordovan is hard to explain to the layman...premium price, horsehide, don't polish regularly, etc, etc.

If cordovan doesn't require regular polishing and it water resistant (as I've heard it described), that could be a selling point.

 

[TRINI]

Originally Posted by Geoff Gander

If cordovan doesn't require regular polishing and it water resistant (as I've heard it described), that could be a selling point.

But at a $200-$300 premium?

 

[sjg22]

As a Torontonian that worked downtown for years, I think that there is a market for high-end shoes in Toronto. Toronto is a luxury driven city now - my morning drive sees more Porsches and Mercedes SLs than Civics or Carollas and try getting a reservation at a decent hour on a Friday night at any nice or 'cool' restaurant. My MTM sales associate at Harry's has said that he sees $25K suits walk out the door several times a month.

The problem I think for high-end shoes in Toronto is that there is: a) terrible distribution channels for them, and b) what there is is extremely overpriced. My SA at Harry's actually wears Lobbs almost exclusively, but buys them overseas because they're substantially cheaper.

What I mean by "a)" is that most men in business shop at Harry's for their clothes. Holts is for "fashionistas" and for your wife or gf. While Holts carries Lobb and even Church, Harry's has always focused completely on Italian made shoes. So, the high-end "businessman's shoes" are at a store that really isn't frequented by this group of people, while, at the same time, these guys are fed a steady stream of b.s. from Harry's sales associates about Ferragamo, Canali, Tod's, etc. The other sources for high-end shoes (Robert Jones, etc) are small, niche places that many people probably don't even know exist.

If Harry's ever started to carry some of the better British brands, than I feel like a market would immediately spring up - somehow there is a market for Tom Ford (before anywhere else in North America outside of NYC; Ford's second store was in Harry's on Bloor), and therefore I'm pretty confident that they could sell Edward Green or John Lobb. Perhaps not in volume, but enough to make it a reasonable extension of certain higher-end men's retailer's business.