I can't stand italian clothing

[Huntsman]

Aspiring to beauty is unwholesome, even suspect, in an American man.

Did you mean "aspiring to be beautiful?" Because I, for one, find beauty a wonderful thing to aspire to, though I have no grandiose ideas of being beautiful, per se.

I would not abjure all things Italian, but the textiles and men's clothing have become too refined, too sophisticated to accord with the American ideal of physical comfort and social invisibility

I wonder if it is an ideal, or if it is merely apathy. A good social question...

Regards,
Huntsman

 

[LabelKing]

(arvi @ 14 Oct. 2004, 06:31) i think all of us here dislike ugly clothes regardless of origin.but i still feel that overall italy has the most beautiful designs and styling.

My distaste for Italian clothing arises from the beauty part.  Aspiring to beauty is unwholesome, even suspect, in an American man.  Unlike Horace, I would not abjure all things Italian, but the textiles and men's clothing have become too refined, too sophisticated to accord with the American ideal of physical comfort and social invisibility .

What a ridiculous concept.

 

[LabelKing]

Quote:

America can boast of no exclusively high end designer company.
No, but America, IMHO, has some of the best streetwear and up and comers (esp. in casualwear) in the world.
True. Japan though has a rather comprehensive selection of such labels as well. Although the American influence is obvious.

 

[Giona Granata]

It looks to me that is thread should better be titled "Italian clothing in the USA".

I'd rather find that the biggest problem down there it isn't italian clothing, but pricing. And that without regard of the nationality of the product. I hear of prices of $3000 to $5000 for not bespoke suits. Do you confirm? What is your experience in your country. I spend €700 for a bespoke suit from a master tailor, out of Milan. In Milan there is an average of 1000-1500. One of the finest tailor in Naples make a bespoke suit for €1300. I'd like to here from others in Europe and USA.

 

[Manton]

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[jcusey]

RTW shoes: England by a mile. Many makers put out a high quality product, with timeless, elegant stylings. Italian efforts tend to be either stylistically odd, or less well made, or frightfully expensive, or all of the above. At the top end (Lattanzi, Kiton) they make really big shoes that seem designed to make the foot look huge. I don't understand this.

Bespoke shoes: England hands down. Gatto in Rome and Messina in Milan make great shoes, but they are for all intents and purposes English shoes. I also think the stuff being turned out by Cleverely and Green is more elegant (better lasts).

I hate to pile on, but...

As A Harris wrote, without Edward Green (and John Lobb Paris RTW, I think), England wouldn't even be in the running. Grenson and Crockett & Jones and Alfred Sargent can produce some nice shoes, but the bench in England isn't nearly as deep as the bench in Italy. In terms of quality of construction, Santoni, Lattanzi, and Kiton (and probably others) can blow anything from Edward Green or JL Paris out of the water, and there are probably a dozen or more producers who are capable of making better shoes than the 3 mid-level English makers. As for shoe design, the Italian makers tend to be more exuberant than the English in this area, but they can make anything that the customer wants. Unfortunately (or fortunately -- variety is the spice of life), the customer often wants some very odd things, particularly in the US.

It seems to me that the bespoke shoemaking bench is also much deeper in Italy than in the US. Gatto and Messina aren't the only bespoke makers in Italy by a long shot. The problem is, of course, finding them -- apparently, they're usually one-man operations completely without the marketing savvy, the English-language skills, or the convenient travel schedule of the bespoke operations at Edward Green or GJ Cleverley.

 

[Giona Granata]

Yes, there are excellent bespoke in Italy, like peron & peron in bologna http://www.peron-e-peron.com/ and Freccia Bestetti in Milan http://www.frecciabestetti.com/home.html but I always am fascinated by english shoes, yes I speak about EG, but also church's. If I think about this, I have a clear model, a style. You do not have a real italian style here, but more a british shoe made in italy.

 

[Manton]

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[globetrotter]

I was once at a sales meeting with about 200 people. 3 were italians, about 50 israelis, abotu 50 americans, the rest divided up from different western and eastern european states. the meeting was supposed to be "business casual".

at the opening, the CEO said "lets play a little game and before we start, can everybody spot the italians?". I was in the back of the room and could see how everybody immidiatly turned to face the italians - 3 men, with beutiful gray suits, brown shoes, colorful shirts and great hair (and a lot of jewlery). What ever you say, italian men almost always look very elegant. English usually more functional (although elegant in a different way, too).

 

[uppercase]

It looks to me that is thread should better be titled "Italian clothing in the USA". Â

I'd rather find that the biggest problem down there it isn't italian clothing, but pricing. And that without regard of the nationality of the product. I hear of prices of $3000 to $5000 for not bespoke suits. Do you confirm? What is your experience in your country. I spend €700 for a bespoke suit from a master tailor, out of Milan. In Milan there is an average of 1000-1500. One of the finest tailor in Naples make a bespoke suit for €1300. I'd like to here from others in Europe and USA.

Giona, The prices you quote in Italy for bespoke suits are amazing. RTW in the USA can easily be more than double that. If you are interested to introduce your tailors, I am sure that many people would like to make a suit with them. With regards,

 

[Giona Granata]

I agree with Manton.

Lattanzi is crazy, and he will continue to assert that he do "bespoke".

The workshops that do bespoke will follow english style (and there are a lot).

The big names are doing some "stylish" shoes that are very ugly in my view.

 

[jcusey]

I disagree that the quality of these shoes blows the English RTW out of the water. At best, they are comparable. And I don't see how prices well north of double what a pair of English shoes costs can be justified

Lattanzi, Kiton, and Santoni all produce shoes that are hand-welted with a feather hand-cut from the insole. All the English manufacturers of RTW shoes use machine welting and a glued-on linen feather. There has been discussion of how much advantage the former method of construction has over the latter, but it's noteworthy that all of the West-end bespoke houses utilize the former. I've never seen better antiquing or skin-stitching than Edward Green does, but the top Italian makers undeniably lavish more skill and more labor on their shoes than Edward Green does. Whether the added skill and labor is worth the cost is, of course, debatable, but that's really everyone's individual decision.

Well, sticking with RTW, I think the top Italian makers make some really goofy shoes. This is only my personal opinion, of course. But those funky designs often just scream "pimp" to me. I suppose one could special order something more classic, but then we are no longer talking about RTW, strictly speaking.

Of course they make goofy shoes. Goofy shoes are apparently what sells in US right now. The point is that they don't just make goofy shoes. It's not like Lattanzi has a catalogue of a few styles that retailers are forced to select from. If a US retailer wanted to carry non-goofy Lattanzi shoes, Lattanzi would be more than happy to make them for him. The same goes for most high-end Italian makers.

Deeper than in the US, yes. But deeper than England? There are arguably six great makers of bespoke shoes in London alone. Also, I singled out Gatto and Messina because they make timeless shoes in the English style. I suppose they will make whatever you ask for. But when I last visited Gatto (in June), nearly all of the 50-odd samples in the shop were classic and gorgeous.

Yes. From what I understand, there are dozens of high-quality independent operations all over Italy. It's just that nobody has ever heard of them. The same goes for tailoring. As for Gatto and his English-styled shoes, well, the Italians have always had a genius for borrowing the best from other nations and improving on it.

 

[Manton]

...

 

[Giona Granata]

Yes, if you live in the USA.

But I live in Milan, and my question is: I go with Edward Green RTW at €700, or bespoke from Bestetti (€1000) or Messina (€1500)?

This is my question.

Also, Marinella bought and reopened the famous and old "Stivaleria Savoia" in Milan. Bespoke and RTW shoes from 1800. Next week I'll visit and maybe I can make a new post here.

 

[jcusey]

And I still wonder: if the Italians are hand welting the shoes, and then attaching the soles by hand, why not make a bevelled waist? Why do they seem to make nothing but reverse welted shoes with double soles?

Well, the appropriateness of a bevelled waist really depends on the style of the shoe. An EG Chelsea would look great with such a waist, but an EG Dover would look pretty silly. If you're going to have a Norwegian-welted split-toe shoe (which can be a stunning shoe, although perhaps not appropriate for a dark gray A&S-cut suit), you had better have a double sole with a straight-cut waist. Like I said, the Italians seem to be making such shoes exclusively now because that apparently is what's selling. When the pendulum swings back in a couple of years, I suspect that you'll see a lot more Lattanzi and Kiton shoes that you like.

I guess that's one reason why I love my Cleverleys. The bottom line is, given the prices, I would always go with Green or Cleverley bepoke over one of the more expensive Italians. You get the same or comparable construction, a last that makes your foot look smaller, the styling you want, and a perfect fit -- all at a comparable or lower price.

Well, I can't really argue with you about value. If I'm going to spend $2500 on a pair of shoes, they're going to be bespoke.