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I can't stand italian clothing

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Horace, Oct 14, 2004.

  1. AlanC

    AlanC Senior member

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    Hey, I like those. [​IMG]
     
  2. LabelKing

    LabelKing Senior member

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    In terms of designer fashions Italy produces by far a most comprehenisve selection. England whilst boasting such notables as Vivienne Westwood or Alexander McQueen trails far behind the Gucci's, and Fendi's of the world.

    America can boast of no exclusively high end designer company. Donna Karan, and Ralph Lauren do not count since they have cheap diffusion lines. Calvin Klein perhaps might edge in with his Black Label, and Collection lines but really, those are shown in Milan.

    British fashion is far more bizzare than Italian fashion.
     
  3. LA Guy

    LA Guy Opposite Santa Staff Member Admin Moderator

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    No, but America, IMHO, has some of the best streetwear and up and comers (esp. in casualwear) in the world.
     
  4. A Harris

    A Harris Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Considering that Horace of Neimans SF is an Isaia specialist, I don't think so [​IMG] As an aside, if anyone is looking for a good salesman to work with at the SF Neimans, Horace is highly recommended. He is a great guy. An extremely general question, but if I was forced to pick I would go with Italy for suits, shirts, ties and shoes. In the suits, shirts, and ties category there is absolutely no competition, IMO. I hear the arguments for English shoes, but if it weren't for Edward Green, I don't think England would even be in the running. Keep in mind that most of the Italian shoes offered in the US are horrid because they are made specifically for the US market. Vass makes great shoes, but I can't pit one workshop against the whole nation of Italy [​IMG]
     
  5. ROI

    ROI Well-Known Member

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  6. Huntsman

    Huntsman Senior member

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    Did you mean "aspiring to be beautiful?" Because I, for one, find beauty a wonderful thing to aspire to, though I have no grandiose ideas of being beautiful, per se.

    I wonder if it is an ideal, or if it is merely apathy. A good social question...

    Regards,
    Huntsman
     
  7. LabelKing

    LabelKing Senior member

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  8. LabelKing

    LabelKing Senior member

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    America can boast of no exclusively high end designer company.
    No, but America, IMHO, has some of the best streetwear and up and comers (esp. in casualwear) in the world.
    True. Japan though has a rather comprehensive selection of such labels as well. Although the American influence is obvious.
     
  9. Giona Granata

    Giona Granata Senior member

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    It looks to me that is thread should better be titled "Italian clothing in the USA". [​IMG] I'd rather find that the biggest problem down there it isn't italian clothing, but pricing. And that without regard of the nationality of the product. I hear of prices of $3000 to $5000 for not bespoke suits. Do you confirm? What is your experience in your country. I spend €700 for a bespoke suit from a master tailor, out of Milan. In Milan there is an average of 1000-1500. One of the finest tailor in Naples make a bespoke suit for €1300. I'd like to here from others in Europe and USA.
     
  10. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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  11. jcusey

    jcusey Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I hate to pile on, but...

    As A Harris wrote, without Edward Green (and John Lobb Paris RTW, I think), England wouldn't even be in the running. Grenson and Crockett & Jones and Alfred Sargent can produce some nice shoes, but the bench in England isn't nearly as deep as the bench in Italy. In terms of quality of construction, Santoni, Lattanzi, and Kiton (and probably others) can blow anything from Edward Green or JL Paris out of the water, and there are probably a dozen or more producers who are capable of making better shoes than the 3 mid-level English makers. As for shoe design, the Italian makers tend to be more exuberant than the English in this area, but they can make anything that the customer wants. Unfortunately (or fortunately -- variety is the spice of life), the customer often wants some very odd things, particularly in the US.

    It seems to me that the bespoke shoemaking bench is also much deeper in Italy than in the US. Gatto and Messina aren't the only bespoke makers in Italy by a long shot. The problem is, of course, finding them -- apparently, they're usually one-man operations completely without the marketing savvy, the English-language skills, or the convenient travel schedule of the bespoke operations at Edward Green or GJ Cleverley.
     
  12. Giona Granata

    Giona Granata Senior member

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    Yes, there are excellent bespoke in Italy, like peron & peron in bologna http://www.peron-e-peron.com/ and Freccia Bestetti in Milan http://www.frecciabestetti.com/home.html but I always am fascinated by english shoes, yes I speak about EG, but also church's. If I think about this, I have a clear model, a style. You do not have a real italian style here, but more a british shoe made in italy.
     
  13. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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  14. globetrotter

    globetrotter Senior member

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    I was once at a sales meeting with about 200 people. 3 were italians, about 50 israelis, abotu 50 americans, the rest divided up from different western and eastern european states. the meeting was supposed to be "business casual".

    at the opening, the CEO said "lets play a little game and before we start, can everybody spot the italians?". I was in the back of the room and could see how everybody immidiatly turned to face the italians - 3 men, with beutiful gray suits, brown shoes, colorful shirts and great hair (and a lot of jewlery). What ever you say, italian men almost always look very elegant. English usually more functional (although elegant in a different way, too).
     
  15. uppercase

    uppercase Senior member

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    Giona, The prices you quote in Italy for bespoke suits are amazing. RTW in the USA can easily be more than double that. If you are interested to introduce your tailors, I am sure that many people would like to make a suit with them. With regards,
     
  16. Giona Granata

    Giona Granata Senior member

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    I agree with Manton.

    Lattanzi is crazy, and he will continue to assert that he do "bespoke".

    The workshops that do bespoke will follow english style (and there are a lot).

    The big names are doing some "stylish" shoes that are very ugly in my view.
     
  17. jcusey

    jcusey Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Lattanzi, Kiton, and Santoni all produce shoes that are hand-welted with a feather hand-cut from the insole. All the English manufacturers of RTW shoes use machine welting and a glued-on linen feather. There has been discussion of how much advantage the former method of construction has over the latter, but it's noteworthy that all of the West-end bespoke houses utilize the former. I've never seen better antiquing or skin-stitching than Edward Green does, but the top Italian makers undeniably lavish more skill and more labor on their shoes than Edward Green does. Whether the added skill and labor is worth the cost is, of course, debatable, but that's really everyone's individual decision.
    Of course they make goofy shoes. Goofy shoes are apparently what sells in US right now. The point is that they don't just make goofy shoes. It's not like Lattanzi has a catalogue of a few styles that retailers are forced to select from. If a US retailer wanted to carry non-goofy Lattanzi shoes, Lattanzi would be more than happy to make them for him. The same goes for most high-end Italian makers.
    Yes. From what I understand, there are dozens of high-quality independent operations all over Italy. It's just that nobody has ever heard of them. The same goes for tailoring. As for Gatto and his English-styled shoes, well, the Italians have always had a genius for borrowing the best from other nations and improving on it.
     
  18. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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  19. Giona Granata

    Giona Granata Senior member

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    Yes, if you live in the USA.

    But I live in Milan, and my question is: I go with Edward Green RTW at €700, or bespoke from Bestetti (€1000) or Messina (€1500)?

    This is my question.

    Also, Marinella bought and reopened the famous and old "Stivaleria Savoia" in Milan. Bespoke and RTW shoes from 1800. Next week I'll visit and maybe I can make a new post here.
     
  20. jcusey

    jcusey Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Well, the appropriateness of a bevelled waist really depends on the style of the shoe. An EG Chelsea would look great with such a waist, but an EG Dover would look pretty silly. If you're going to have a Norwegian-welted split-toe shoe (which can be a stunning shoe, although perhaps not appropriate for a dark gray A&S-cut suit), you had better have a double sole with a straight-cut waist. Like I said, the Italians seem to be making such shoes exclusively now because that apparently is what's selling. When the pendulum swings back in a couple of years, I suspect that you'll see a lot more Lattanzi and Kiton shoes that you like.


    Well, I can't really argue with you about value. If I'm going to spend $2500 on a pair of shoes, they're going to be bespoke.
     

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