Fused vs canvas debate

[FCS]

Rudder:  I think most of independent owned bespoke shop will charge less than $2000 CAD for bespoke tailoring (depends on the fabric of course.)  I think I heard one bespoke shop on Bay and king (?) starts around $900CAD.  

I know some who charges only a few hundred dollars for the labour, but the issue is of course quality. The one at Bay & King is unlikely to be bespoke in a sense that they create individual patterns.

 

[A Harris]

All this debate has even me confused. But one thing I can say for sure - if there is a second layer of fabric, no matter how thick or thin, fused to the chest fabric, then you are dealing with a fused suit. End of story.

 

[MilanoStyle]

I am curious to know, in fused suits, how does this middle layer gets glued onto the fabric and what part of middle layer gets glued onto the fabric? I think only the edge of the middle layer gets glued onto the fabric because almost all lower end suits i pinched, I felt the middle layer suspending from the outside fabric. When I was separating these 2 layers, I could feel and hear glue detaching from the edge...

 

[johnnynorman3]

Quote:

FYI, I cut open a fused Burberry (probably 15 years old) and the canvas chest piece was most certainly sewn in to the jacket. So, again, I doubt that the hallmark of a fused jacket is that the chest interlining (which was made of Canvas in the Burberry) is glued in.
You were most likely looking at a half-canvassed suit. A salesman at the local Burberry boutique told me that Burberry's mainline suits (which retail for around $795) have a floating canvas chest.
I understand that it has a floating chest piece. But the fabric at the chest area was still fused. I haven't cut open any other suits, but from the $300 range on up, all fused suits I have felt have a canvas chest piece, and from the feel of them the chest piece were stitched in in every last one of them.

 

[johnnynorman3]

I am curious to know, in fused suits, how does this middle layer gets glued onto the fabric and what part of middle layer gets glued onto the fabric? I think only the edge of the middle layer gets glued onto the fabric because almost all lower end suits i pinched, I felt the middle layer suspending from the outside fabric. When I was separating these 2 layers, I could feel and hear glue detaching from the edge...

I don't think that was glue you're hearing. I think it was likely the fusing material "sticking" to the rough canvas. The canvas is not glued to the fusing. The fusing is glued to the wool. Here's an attempt at a diagram, (I have tried to diagram a human in a suit. It's a profile of the human). So, what's I've attempted to draw here is that the chest piece is not attached to the fusing or the wool, but that the fusing is attached to the wool. If you want to know what the fusing looks like without cutting open your jacket chest, a fused suit almost always contains fusing in the cuff of the jacket. If you want to unstitch the lining near the cuff (it's pretty easy to stitch back if you are adept with a needle), you'll see what I'm talking about.

It's funny that we've confused A. Harris, when in fact his simple thickness test is the ultimate fail proof method.

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B l C FW
A l H UO
C l E SO
K l S IL
O l T NW
F l P GO
J l I FO
A l E UL
C l C SW
K l E I O
E l NO
T l GL
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[Rudder]

FCS/Milano - I'm only aware of 3 bespoke shops in the financial district: Rego (Exchange Tower), House of Salgado (RBC Plaza) and another one on King or Adelaide, east of Yonge. I've only spoken to Salgado and he quoted a "standard" bespoke suit at about $1300, but I'm not sure if it's canvassed. I was wondering if there were other gems out there.

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Milano - Glad I'm not the only one who enjoys Armani's soft look. And I also thought the screeching sound from pulling the shell and the lining in opposite directions came from the stretched glue.

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FCS - I haven't been to Nicolas Men yet; it's on my list of places to visit tomorrow. I'm eager to see how the Vestimenta fits me.

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jonnynorman3/A Harrris - The diagram is very helpful. If I understand correctly, there are three layers in the suit regardless if it is fused or canvassed. However, a fused suit contains an extra material that is glued to the outer layer. This gives it its thickness.

Here's then a stupid question, why do tailors have to fuse an extra material to the wool? I remember reading that it's to seal something, but I just can't understand why. Can you not stitch it with a machine?

 

[FCS]

FCS/Milano - I'm only aware of 3 bespoke shops in the financial district: Rego (Exchange Tower), House of Salgado (RBC Plaza) and another one on King or Adelaide, east of Yonge. I've only spoken to Salgado and he quoted a "standard" bespoke suit at about $1300, but I'm not sure if it's canvassed. I was wondering if there were other gems out there.

I don't know about the third one, but neither Rego nor Salgado make bespokes (bespoke defined as having an individual pattern made for your suit). Rego doesn't even have an in-house tailor, they cater MTMs for Cambridge, Samuelsohn, and Brioni. Salgado is a tailor and he will do basted-fitting for the suits, but he is using master patterns and not much handworks go into the suit. His suits are canvassed but I'm not sure whether they are hand-canvassed or machine-canvassed, and there is significant difference in the end results.

 

[Rudder]

FCS - thanks for your prompt reply. I didn't know that I could design my own pattern at a "true" bespoke shop. I had the impression that I was limited to the fabrics it carries. I guess this option would drive the cost of the suit substantially higher.

While I have you here, do you know of any good places in TO for bespoke shirts? I've ordered bespoke shirts at two places so far: Harry (about $350 with taxes) and Salgado (about $225).

 

[FCS]

Rudder, it's not really you creating your own pattern but rather the tailor create individual pattern designed to better contour your body. This is quite hard to do and unless the cutter is exceptional it is better to start with a master pattern and then modifying it.

Regarding shirts, I've no idea of any bespoke shirtmakers in the GTA as I haven't really looked much into it. I've heard of some names but I haven't inquired whether they are truly bespokes or not. The usual Rosen's MTM shirts are outsourced to Royal Shirts Company and I'm sure Salgado also outsources his. They are all machine-made shirts though, and in any case I doubt any shirtmakers in TO could do handmade shirts to the league of Borrelli etc. Try Jantzen for inexpensive yet very decent MTM shirts, about the same quality with the shirts you got from Rosen if not slightly better in construction.

 

[Brian SD]

I am so confused. So if a suit is canvassed, it will have 3 layers. If a suit is fused, it has three layers, but the wool feels thicker because there's that fleecey stuff fused to it? "You thought you knew, but you have no idea." That is me right now Â

I understand the fail-proof pinching method, but what I don't understand is what makes a suit look nicer when its canvassed? The phrase "It fits better on the chest" doesn't mean a lot to me alone. What makes it fit better on the chest? Sweet Jesus.

 

[MilanoStyle]

I think if your suit has front canvas, the suit would maintain natural drape even after period of time, especially after dry clean. How its achiving the drape, i do not know cuz I do not own full front canvase suit. Is there possiblity that: 1. Suit is not fully canvased. 2. Suit has floating chest canvas 3. Other parts of garmet has no canvas nor fusing. I am asking this because when I tried rubbing fabrics on NEW Hugo Boss suits @ Holt, I felt it was RUBBERY. I felt the wool outside, but when you rub them together you get the sense that the wool's reverse side is not wool. I mainly tested bottom front corner of the jacket. Thus, is fusing the technique that coats synthetic material on to the natural fabric to shape the frabric in certain way? Because, my Hugo Boss suit (from 1997, 1998, and 1999) still looks sharp BTW

, does not feel that way. It feels the same inside and outside. I do not feel any coating inside of the fabric... I should have watched my tailor(he is master tailor BTW) when he worked on my suit. So, here is my analogy: | - represent binding. >> represents separate layer. 1. Chest area of Current Hugo Boss Suits (fused) OutSide fabric|Synthetic Coat>>Chest Canvas>>Lining>>Your chest 2. Chest area of my (old) Hugo Boss Suits (fused?) Outside fabric>>Chest Canvas>>Lining>>my chest Anyone would agree with my analogy? Or Am I totally off the chart?

 

[johnnynorman3]

You've got it exactly right, Milano. When you sense that the inside doesn't "fee like wool," what you are feeling is the fusing.

I have no clue why the majority of suits are fused. It doesn't seem like it would cost that much more to fully canvas the thing, especially if the job were outsourced. Can you imagine the market share of a fully canvasses suit, made in say, Hong Kong, and priced to move at $500? I'd say the market share would be substantial, and I must think that it would also be a profitable sell.

 

[johnnynorman3]

I am so confused. So if a suit is canvassed, it will have 3 layers. If a suit is fused, it has three layers, but the wool feels thicker because there's that fleecey stuff fused to it? "You thought you knew, but you have no idea." That is me right now

I understand the fail-proof pinching method, but what I don't understand is what makes a suit look nicer when its canvassed? The phrase "It fits better on the chest" doesn't mean a lot to me alone. What makes it fit better on the chest? Sweet Jesus.

When the wool doesn't have the fusible facing, it drapes better because it is thinner, more natural, and lighter. Just ask yourself, what kind of shirt looks dressier -- 140s Sea Island Cotton, or a stiff Oxford cloth? What kind of dress looks more expensive on a woman? A silk dress, or a stiff cotton? Additionally, because the canvas is all stitched all the way down the seams of the jacket, the suit holds its shape better. Moreover, over time the glue holding the fusing to the wool becomes even stiffer, and (rumor has it) starts to bubble.

 

[FCS]

On that topic, I was always under the impression that in a canvas-front suit there's three distinct layers of fabric here:

(That's before you hit the pockets, of course.) True? Not true? True in some cases?

Let me paraphrase Nick here: pinch the area on the red circle, pull the outer wool fabric with one hand's thumb and index finger, then pull the inside lining with another hand's thumb and index finger. On a fully canvassed suit you will be able find a third layer in the middle that you could pull. Conversely, you won't be able to pull that third layer on a fused suit. You could also test this on the chest area. Works everytime I tried it, just be careful not to pinch the area that has pocket. And be very gentle when doing this on department stores.

 

[johnnynorman3]

Quote:

On that topic, I was always under the impression that in a canvas-front suit there's three distinct layers of fabric here:

(That's before you hit the pockets, of course.) True? Not true? True in some cases?
Let me paraphrase Nick here: pinch the area on the red circle, pull the outer wool fabric with one hand's thumb and index finger, then pull the inside lining with another hand's thumb and index finger. On a fully canvassed suit you will be able find a third layer in the middle that you could pull. Conversely, you won't be able to pull that third layer on a fused suit. You could also test this on the chest area. Works everytime I tried it, just be careful not to pinch the area that has pocket. And be very gentle when doing this on department stores.
Tis true. But how careful you must be depends upon the department store . . . and how poor their customer service is.