Fused vs canvas debate

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Rudder, Apr 29, 2004.

  1. johnnynorman3

    johnnynorman3 Senior member

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    I wanted to note one other thing. The extra "layer" of fabric that A. Harris speaks of -- the fabric that is literally fused to the wool -- is a thin "fleece-like" material. That is why if you roll the fabric between your fingers it will feel very slippery on the inside.

    A. Harris, could you post a pic of a bubbled suit jacket if you have one?
     


  2. A Harris

    A Harris Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Yes - but Nick is referring to the lower portion of the jacket, where the red circles are.
     


  3. FCS

    FCS Senior member

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    That test won't work in half-canvassed, half-fused suits. You could still try to pinch the chest and feels the third layer.
    Yes - but Nick is referring to the lower portion of the jacket, where the red circles are.
    Totally understood, I was just saying that if one couldn't find a third layer in the encircled area, it doesn't mean that the jacket has no canvassing at all.
     


  4. Rudder

    Rudder Member

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    I appreciate everyone's comments. I tried a Kiton suit again today and it did feel softer in my body than my half-canvassed Armani (natural cut), but not by much. So I will stick with Armani -- even though it's not fully canvassed - for my next purchase. Now I did find a shop in Toronto that makes a MTM canvassed suit within my price range, but I'm hesitant to go this route. I can't justify spending a lot of money without the certainty that it'll exactly fit and look like my Armani. My personal experience aside, I do have a couple of follow-up questions: 1) Is it normal that I feel a distinctive third layer in the body of my Boss suit even though the outer layer of the body is thicker than that of the sleeve? In other words, it's a fused suit, but why can I feel three layers? 2) Is the material in the interlacing (that middle layer) of a fused-suit the same as that of a canvassed-suit? Â I think not based on my interpretation of this article. If that's the case, what type of material other than glue gives the fused-suit its thickness? Edit: I just realized that johnny D was kind of enough to explain that "the fabric that is literally fused to the wool -- is a thin "fleece-like" material."
     


  5. regularjoe

    regularjoe Senior member

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    The third layer is always there. The difference is that it's fused to the rest of the layers instead of sewn in.

    I thought the same thing about my Hugo Boss suit jackets. I cut one open to satisfy my curiosity and it was quite enlightening.
     


  6. MilanoStyle

    MilanoStyle Senior member

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    1) Is it normal that I feel a distinctive third layer in the body of my Boss suit even though the outer layer of the body is thicker than that of the sleeve? In other words, it's a fused suit, but why can I feel three layers?
    The third layer is always there. Â The difference is that it's fused to the rest of the layers instead of sewn in. I thought the same thing about my Hugo Boss suit jackets. Â I cut one open to satisfy my curiosity and it was quite enlightening.
    Can you write what you saw when you took the suit apart in detail?
     


  7. johnnynorman3

    johnnynorman3 Senior member

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    FYI, I cut open a fused Burberry (probably 15 years old) and the canvas chest piece was most certainly sewn in to the jacket. So, again, I doubt that the hallmark of a fused jacket is that the chest interlining (which was made of Canvas in the Burberry) is glued in.
     


  8. FCS

    FCS Senior member

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    What Armani is it? I haven't seen any Armani with half canvassing and Collezioni is fused, totally. Also, if you like soft tailoring you might want to try Isaia at Marc Laurent; absolutely superior suits, more tapered than Kiton, and about the same prices with Armani's highest line (which IMO is the only Armani worth owning, only if you are willing to pay 75% premium over what Vestimenta itself is making). Speaking of which, there's also a store (the name escaped me at this point) in Bloor St. West area that carries Vestimenta.

    It's hard to emulate designers' clothes to the exact details, so if you want Armani look and drape it's better to get Armani. If I may ask, which MTM shop were you referring to?
     


  9. Rudder

    Rudder Member

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    regular joe / johnnynorman3 - if the interlining is fused, shouldn't I feel only two layers, the thicker shell and the lining (as per A Harris's post on the Ask Andy Forum). ----- FCS - The Collezioni I have is based on the natural fit (softer) style, which came out in Fall 2003 but was only available in Canada. Doing the pinch test, I do get the impression that it's fused, but I was told by two different sources (Marc Laurent and Harry Rosen) that the lapel is canvassed. Regardless, it still feels much softer than my Boss suits. Marc Laurent was the store I was referring to, thanks for suggesting it as well. I did see the Isaia line but I didn't like the cut in the shoulder. I much prefer the sloped shoulders of the Armani (the stitching (or lining?) from the collar to the shoulder on my Armani runs towards to the back as opposed to being straight-lined as my Boss suits). Nicholas Men is the store that carries Vestimenta (I did my homework.). But I'm not a good candidate for RTW suits, I'm 5'8 and wear size 36 suits, which very few stores carry). BTW, I was also told that no one in Canada carries Armani black label, but it's out of my price range anyway. I'm still leaning towards getting another MTM Collezioni, but I'm always open to other suggestions. Can you recommend a good bespoke shop in Toronto that make suits at around $2000 (Cdn) or under if that's possible? ----- Silly question... would the construction of the suit matter more for women (considering the vastly protruding chest area)? I don't think any of my lady friends know about this canvassed / fused element. ps: thanks everyone.. I've learned so much in the past 2 days.
     


  10. johnnynorman3

    johnnynorman3 Senior member

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    No. So, here's the thing. In a canvas suit, the canvas interlining will run all the way down to the very bottom of the suit jacket, and it will be stitched all the way down the seams. In a fused suit, the canvas interlining will only be a "chest piece," which in my experience is stitched in as well (some have said the chest piece is glued in, but I've never seen this). This chest piece roughly runs to the chest pocket area. Because there is no interlining at the bottom of the jacket, the manufacturer adds a fleece-like material to inside face of the wool. I'm guessing that, in order for the thickness of the wool to be uniform throughout the front of the suit, the fusing runs all the way up. Thus, you will feel the distinct third layer in the chest area -- this is the chest piece -- but you still feel the extra thickness. Trust A. Harris's main point on this one: the way to tell if your suit is fused it to determine whether the wool at the chest is thicker than the wool at the middle of the sleeve or the back. I honestly have never seen/felt a suit that didn't use a canvas chest piece, such that the suit did not have three distinct layers at the chest area. It has not been my experience that fused suits fuse this canvas piece to the wool. Rather, it is an extra fleece-like layer that is fused to the material.
     


  11. johnnynorman3

    johnnynorman3 Senior member

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    That might be right -- but that's irrelevent to whether the suit is fused. Lots of fused suits use padstitched canvas in the lapels. Southwick and HSM are good examples.
     


  12. FCS

    FCS Senior member

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    Yes, there is one, I haven't tried him yet (until I found a secure employment) but I did see his works and constructionwise it's a million times better than Collezioni. He works from home and guessing from the amount of details a comparable suit would cost at least CAD $3000 elsewhere. However if you want Armani look and drape he would advise you to buy Armani.

    What's your impression on Vestimenta, btw?
     


  13. Ambulance Chaser

    Ambulance Chaser Senior member

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    You were most likely looking at a half-canvassed suit.  A salesman at the local Burberry boutique told me that Burberry's mainline suits (which retail for around $795) have a floating canvas chest.
     


  14. FCS

    FCS Senior member

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    regular joe / johnnynorman3 - if the interlining is fused, shouldn't I feel only two layers, the thicker shell and the lining (as per A Harris's post on the Ask Andy Forum). .
    No. Â So, here's the thing. Â In a canvas suit, the canvas interlining will run all the way down to the very bottom of the suit jacket, and it will be stitched all the way down the seams. Â In a fused suit, the canvas interlining will only be a "chest piece," which in my experience is stitched in as well (some have said the chest piece is glued in, but I've never seen this). Â This chest piece roughly runs to the chest pocket area. Â Because there is no interlining at the bottom of the jacket, the manufacturer adds a fleece-like material to inside face of the wool. Â I'm guessing that, in order for the thickness of the wool to be uniform throughout the front of the suit, the fusing runs all the way up. Â Thus, you will feel the distinct third layer in the chest area -- this is the chest piece -- but you still feel the extra thickness. Â Trust A. Harris's main point on this one: Â the way to tell if your suit is fused it to determine whether the wool at the chest is thicker than the wool at the middle of the sleeve or the back. Â I honestly have never seen/felt a suit that didn't use a canvas chest piece, such that the suit did not have three distinct layers at the chest area. Â It has not been my experience that fused suits fuse this canvas piece to the wool. Â Rather, it is an extra fleece-like layer that is fused to the material.
    Johnny, there are half-canvassed / half-fused suits and then there are totally fused suits; you seems to be describing the former here. The vast majority of suits out there are totally fused.
     


  15. MilanoStyle

    MilanoStyle Senior member

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    Rudder: I think most of independent owned bespoke shop will charge less than $2000 CAD for bespoke tailoring (depends on the fabric of course.) I think I heard one bespoke shop on Bay and king (?) starts around $900CAD.

    Like you, I too am very happy with Armani Colleczioni MTM suit 'natural line' Armani's soft curve on natural line is very distinct.
     


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