DB jacket proportions - lapel width & button position

[sho'nuff]

Originally Posted by aj_del

What about this RLPL suit ? The jacket does not appear to be as short as the earlier example

this is one sick look. love it

 

[apropos]

Originally Posted by DocHolliday

Can we also talk about how this bespoke number defies the RTW paradigm?
DocHolliday - that looks like a FNB trouser cuffs on jacket sleeves number.

 

[forex]

Originally Posted by Douglas

I guess the point is, why should Rubinacci's (or any bespoke tailor's "house style") cut look as good on you as it does on someone else? This whole argument has been set up as RTW vs. bespoke, and I'm not sure I understand why.

I don't buy it either,I don't think one bespoke tailor's house style looks good on everybody who uses him. Rubis posted on the forum look consistently good but not the same on everyone whereas Chan's stuff looks good on couple of people and looks bad on others. So what does this say? Perhaps good bespoke tailor is capable of making his house style look good on everyone? Maybe you should try Rubinacci and see how it looks on you?

 

[DocHolliday]

Originally Posted by apropos

DocHolliday - is that a FNB trouser cuffs on shirt sleeves number?

That is but one of the things I find interesting about it. Would you say the bespeaker escaped the whims of RTW fashion through the expression of classic style that is bespoke?

Truly its own paradigm.

 

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by apropos

This is partly true, but if you did dress 'like Matt' you would at best be a pale imitation of him, because you are not him. That said, you have put forth that there is a stylistic element there that you and Matt both have is identifiably 'Rubinacci', so yes - at some level - you do dress like Matt as much as Matt dresses like you. However Matt's Rubi looks so much better for him than yours because his physical proportions gel well with Rubi's house style. A swelled chest and fuller sleeves on a 6 foot man is so much more appropriate - and looks so much more better - than a swelled chest and fuller arms on a 5 foot man. You do not do as well in the Rubi mould as others. I would not hesitate to say that most (all?) here would pick his grey flannel DB effort as looking subjectively 'better' than yours. Same tailor, similar cloth, same house style, different person... and a rather different result.
Of course the results are different. You are the one suggesting a mould, not I. You contradict yourself so many times that it's becoming more and more clear there is little point in responding to you. At any rate, given your bizarre, fixated aggression toward me, I hope you'll understand that I don't take your personal opinions on my clothes very seriously.

Originally Posted by apropos

Once again, you do not do as well in the Rubi mould as others, but you appear content to think that a 'very stylish man' has nailed down for you what looks best for you.
You are not a moron, so you should know that I've never said that I believe my look is the best possible because a stylish man nailed it down for me. That is how you have characterized my experience. For whatever reason, you are not able to fathom that a person can take advice and guidance from another without simply obeying commands. Of course, you believe personal style comes through properly commanding your tailor, so I shouldn't be all that surprised.

Originally Posted by apropos

Your 'Rubinacci house style' has little more to do with Gennaro as my 'apropos style cut' has to do with my tailor. Both Gennaro and my tailor were guided by someone else in what to come up with. In your case, Mariano (and any decisions Mariano made that were OK-ed by you), and in my case - just me, no middleman, no tour guide.
Get it through your skull: the way your tailor makes your suit is a product of unchangeable conditions predating your relationship with him. No matter what you told him to do, he is being additionally guided by something or someone other than you.

Originally Posted by apropos

Ah, but you've just spent many paragraphs defending the proposition that bespoke indeed does have its limitations on construction and style, and so you pick the bespoke maker that has the best mix of strengths/weaknesses for you.
What? I said that a tailor has unique strengths, tendencies, and limitations that clients cannot change. Thus, a savvy client tries to understand those qualities before he picks his tailor. The problem with RTW is not that it cannot have a unique style, but that it faces technical limitations due to its mass production for a large number of body types, and those technical limitations can often overlap with the style itself.

Originally Posted by apropos

And bespoke makers - especially the ones that have a strong house style - aren't incentivised to propagate said house style when it avoids their weaknesses? Really? You really think Rubinacci won't do a strong shoulder for you because they actually genuinely cannot handle adjusting their cutting patterns to account for 8mm of shoulder pad, as opposed to it being that a strongly padded shoulder is... not what they do best?
I didn't say there was no incentive to promote a house style. I said that house styles are often the results of unique experience and conditions and that, since they are what a tailor does most often, they tend to embody optimal results. What do you not understand about that? Whether or not there is an incentive to specialize does not change the fact that specialization occurs.

Originally Posted by apropos

Wrong, wrong, wrong. There is a 50-50 split in this man's height due to his jacket. You also do not see the base of his crotch, and this is with him walking to boot. Is his jacket really 'way too short to ever make sense on most bodies'?
Yes. It's too short. The pocket-to-button relation is merely suggestive and not evidential, granted, but that is not the only indicator of its shortness. The hem of the jacket appears to end at the exact widest point of his hips--this only looks passable on him because he has very narrow hips to begin with.

Originally Posted by apropos

And what about this photo of iammatt? Have a gander at his hip pockets. Now think about his buttoning point. He shares the same (infallible) tailoring house (that always knows what's best for each client) as you BTW.
I never said Rubinacci was infallible, although I think it's very interesting that you posited such a perception on your own. Envy, is it? At any rate, I agree that pocket-to-button relation is suggestive, not evidential. On the other hand, the silhouette is far more telling. Look at Iammatt's hips compared to the RL model's. The former do not taper so dramatically as the latter from the point of the jacket hem. Is is the flare of the jacket skirt to blame on the RL model? I don't think so. It is obviously as slim as one could reasonably go as is. More length would have helped.

Originally Posted by apropos

This is il vecchio. Many litres of digital ink have been spilled on how wonderful/amazing he looks. Look at his hip pockets. Now think about his buttoning point. What do you see?

1. His bottom buttons are level with his pocket slits. 2. His jacket is proportionately significantly longer than the RL model's/ 3. His jacket looks like A&S to me. Thus, he clearly has no personal style. He is a mindless drone for not demanding his Savile Row tailors to each invent a new il vecchio cut just for him.

Originally Posted by apropos

This is partly true, but if you did dress 'like Matt' you would at best be a pale imitation of him, because you are not him. That said, you have put forth that there is a stylistic element there that you and Matt both have is identifiably 'Rubinacci', so yes - at some level - you do dress like Matt as much as Matt dresses like you. However Matt's Rubi looks so much better for him than yours because his physical proportions gel well with Rubi's house style. A swelled chest and fuller sleeves on a 6 foot man is so much more appropriate - and looks so much more better - than a swelled chest and fuller arms on a 5 foot man. You do not do as well in the Rubi mould as others. I would not hesitate to say that most (all?) here would pick his grey flannel DB effort as looking subjectively 'better' than yours. Same tailor, similar cloth, same house style, different person... and a rather different result.
Of course the results are different. You are the one suggesting a mould, not I. You contradict yourself so many times that it's becoming more and more clear there is little point in responding to you. At any rate, given your bizarre, fixated aggression toward me, I hope you'll understand that I don't take your personal opinions on my clothes very seriously.

Originally Posted by apropos

Once again, you do not do as well in the Rubi mould as others, but you appear content to think that a 'very stylish man' has nailed down for you what looks best for you.
You are not a moron (are you?), so you should know that I've never said that I believe my look is the best possible because a stylish man nailed it down for me. That is how you have characterized my experience. For whatever reason, you are not able to fathom that a person can take advice and guidance from another without simply obeying commands. Of course, you believe personal style comes through properly commanding your tailor, so I shouldn't be all that surprised.

Originally Posted by apropos

Your 'Rubinacci house style' has little more to do with Gennaro as my 'apropos style cut' has to do with my tailor. Both Gennaro and my tailor were guided by someone else in what to come up with. In your case, Mariano (and any decisions Mariano made that were OK-ed by you), and in my case - just me, no middleman, no tour guide.
Get it through your thick skull: the way your tailor makes your suit is a product of unchangeable conditions predating your relationship with him. No matter what you told him to do, he is being additionally guided by something or someone other than you.

Originally Posted by apropos

Ah, but you've just spent many paragraphs defending the proposition that bespoke indeed does have its limitations on construction and style, and so you pick the bespoke maker that has the best mix of strengths/weaknesses for you.
What? I said that a tailor has unique strengths, tendencies, and limitations that clients cannot change. Thus, a savvy client tries to understand those qualities before he picks his tailor. The problem with RTW is not that it cannot have a unique style, but that it faces technical limitations due to its mass production for a large number of body types, and those technical limitations can often overlap with the style itself.

Originally Posted by apropos

And bespoke makers - especially the ones that have a strong house style - aren't incentivised to propagate said house style when it avoids their weaknesses? Really? You really think Rubinacci won't do a strong shoulder for you because they actually genuinely cannot handle adjusting their cutting patterns to account for 8mm of shoulder pad, as opposed to it being that a strongly padded shoulder is... not what they do best?
I didn't say there was no incentive to promote a house style. I said that house styles are often the results of unique experience and conditions and that, since they are what a tailor does most often, they tend to embody optimal results. What do you not understand about that? Whether or not there is an incentive to specialize does not change the fact that specialization occurs.

Originally Posted by apropos

Wrong, wrong, wrong. There is a 50-50 split in this man's height due to his jacket. You also do not see the base of his crotch, and this is with him walking to boot. Is his jacket really 'way too short to ever make sense on most bodies'?
Yes. It's too short. The pocket-to-button relation is merely suggestive and not evidential, granted, but that is not the only indicator of its shortness. The hem of the jacket appears to end at the exact widest point of his hips--this only looks passable on him because he has very narrow hips to begin with.

Originally Posted by apropos

And what about this photo of iammatt? Have a gander at his hip pockets. Now think about his buttoning point. He shares the same (infallible) tailoring house (that always knows what's best for each client) as you BTW.
I never said Rubinacci was infallible, although I think it's very interesting that you posited such a perception on your own. Envy, is it? At any rate, I agree that pocket-to-button relation is suggestive, not evidential. On the other hand, the silhouette is far more telling. Look at Iammatt's hips compared to the RL model's. The former do not taper so dramatically as the latter from the point of the jacket hem. Is is the flare of the jacket skirt to blame on the RL model? I don't think so. It is obviously as slim as one could reasonably go as is. More length would have helped.

Originally Posted by apropos

This is Michael Alden, founder of the London Lounge, and a very well dressed man. Same... error?

1. Again, the buttons are level with the pockets--the slits are only slight above. 2. The length appears much longer than on what the RL model is wearing. 3. This jacket smacks of souther Italian tailoring. Thus, he also must have no personal style.

Originally Posted by apropos

And finally, having your arms at the 'same length' as your jacket hem may naturally be a result of... having long arms relative to your body. With better nutrition, this is getting more common nowadays. Consider that as well, please.
Speechless.

Originally Posted by apropos

Wrong again. You have failed to factor in natural human movement in your assessment of what is an 'elegant silhouette'.
I don't think this kind of curvature should result from mildly swinging your arms while walking. It suggests that the jacket is not pivoting at the same points as his arms from his shoulders or that the sleeve may not be shaped or rotated properly.

Originally Posted by apropos

Take a gander at this photo - you see the same thing going on with vox's left (right on your screen) sleeve. So he's not wearing a 'good bespoke jacket'?

I don't see it. Actually, this photo proves my point. The flat 'C' curve stays intact even as he's walking. What you are seeing on his left sleeve appears more an acute rumple than anything else.

Originally Posted by Trompe le Monde

i dont care for you and your arguments but will not stop responding until you acknowledge my position.
Huh?

 

[apropos]

^

Yes, I envy your appearance, and want a Rubinacci secretly. Many here do. NB: you may be approaching FNB levels of denial here. "1. His bottom buttons are level with his pocket flaps." FTFY.

 

[Tom Ford Love]

Originally Posted by aj_del

I got the pic from Simon's website but I think the picture is from the Paul Stuart lookbook though I am not sure

I am not positive, but the picture definitely looks like something from Domenico Vacca. He's known for showcasing that 90* arc with ties in his photos. I would almost be willing to bet money on it. In fact, after googling it, I found it. So my advice would be to simply call the Vacca store in New York and get all the specific measurements of the jacket and have your tailor make it that way.


http://www.mensflair.com/ns/media/in...n-clot-hor.jpg

 

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by apropos

"1. His bottom buttons are level with his pocket slits. "

^

Yes, they are, give a take a centimeter. In comparison, the button is completely below the flap on the RL jacket. At any rate, as I clarified in my earlier post, the pocket-to-button relation is only suggestive.

 

[DocHolliday]

But what can we learn from this ****?

 

[apropos]

Oh, give or take a centimeter eh? I edited my original post, have a look.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

Yes, they are, give a take a centimeter. In comparison, the button is completely below the flap on the RL jacket. At any rate, as I clarified in my earlier post, the pocket-to-button relation is only suggestive.
I think I have pinpointed your original mistake - unlike what you asserted, the model's jacket does not button at his natural waist. It is buttoned slightly below his natural waist. This was done to elongate his lapel line, and to possibly increase the area of visible shirt on his jacket. The bottom buttons have been shifted down to accommodate this.

 

[forex]

Foo,are you saying that you have a personal style? How is your Rubi bespoke suit different from Il Vechio's A&S bespoke suit? Aren't they both house styles? Did you not make bunch of arguments that your bespoke tailor will still abide by his house style no matter how hard you try to guide him? If someone can look at your suit and identify that it is Rubinacci, would it be accurate to say that you are a mindless drone and have no personal style?

 

[apropos]

One more thing:

Originally Posted by apropos

And finally, having your arms at the 'same length' as your jacket hem may naturally be a result of... having long arms relative to your body.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

Speechless.
Speechless because you are wrong? Have a gander at this. We are fortunate that the House of Lipshitz has set the camera up in exactly the same way for both photographs, so issues of perspective trouble us less here. I have drawn a line through the tie knot on both models to provide a common baseline for comparison, as shoulder lines or whatnot are less helpful here due to them being angled with natural movement. Note the different proportions - especially the length of the arms on both models. Interesting that the jacket hems end at similar heights. Note also the difference in buttoning points, which I pointed out earlier. The blue jacket clearly has its entire buttoning stance shifted lower.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

I never said Rubinacci was infallible, although I think it's very interesting that you posited such a perception on your own. Envy, is it?
This one is good enough to warrant a revisit. You couldn't even work out that the entire buttoning stance was shifted down by a low buttoning point on the blue jacket. There were flags that could have alerted you to that which you missed - aside from the one I mentioned, the blue jacket was not near being 'bisected' evenly height-wise by the top button. Compare how the top button on the blue jacket bisects the jacket when compared to the grey/pink windowpane. Instead, you thought the jacket was...

Originally Posted by mafoofan

way too short to ever make sense on most bodies.
So... I envy you? Really?

Or do you want desperately to be envied and listened to as as a bespoke expert when you... know so little about what actually goes into designing a bespoke suit for oneself? And why should you? You've let others make decisions for you to approve, and subsumed the myriad unspoken decisions that were not run past you as your own choices.

 

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by forex

Foo,are you saying that you have a personal style? How is your Rubi bespoke suit different from Il Vechio's A&S bespoke suit? Aren't they both house styles? Did you not make bunch of arguments that your bespoke tailor will still abide by his house style no matter how hard you try to guide him? If someone can look at your suit and identify that it is Rubinacci, would it be accurate to say that you are a mindless drone and have no personal style?
No, I was being sarcastic. Both il vecchio and Alden are very stylish. I was just parroting apropos's line that one cannot be personally stylish if they adopt a tailor's house style.

 

[DocHolliday]

Nobody wants to touch this comely ****?

 

[voxsartoria]

Originally Posted by DocHolliday

Nobody wants to touch this comely ****?

Was that made for Gilt Groupe?


- B