DB jacket proportions - lapel width & button position

[Douglas]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

Well, to be fair, we touched on this earlier. RTW is a problematic basis for bespoke expectations because RTW limitations on construction, fit, and style do not apply in the bespoke world. Moreover, RTW purveyors are naturally incentivized to market a sort of correctness that complies with those limitations. Things that come down the runway or depicted in ads often look "good" in a certain way, but have flaws that should not be tolerated in competent bespoke.

I'm going to need an example here. Why not use the RL image in this thread to illustrate the point? Vague generalities don't help us non-bespoke types in the least.

 

[Mr. Moo]

nipples

 

[apropos]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

The myth that I dress like Matt may be the most convenient to believe in if you want an easy way to criticize me, but it is nonetheless a myth.
This is partly true, but if you did dress 'like Matt' you would at best be a pale imitation of him, because you are not him. That said, you have put forth that there is a stylistic element there that you and Matt both have is identifiably 'Rubinacci', so yes - at some level - you do dress like Matt as much as Matt dresses like you. However Matt's Rubi looks so much better for him than yours because his physical proportions gel well with Rubi's house style. A swelled chest and fuller sleeves on a 6 foot man is so much more appropriate - and looks so much more better - than a swelled chest and fuller arms on a 5 foot man. You do not do as well in the Rubi mould as others. I would not hesitate to say that most (all?) here would pick his grey flannel DB effort as looking subjectively 'better' than yours. Same tailor, similar cloth, same house style, different person... and a rather different result. Once again, you do not do as well in the Rubi mould as others, but you appear content to think that a 'very stylish man' has nailed down for you what looks best for you.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

Anyway, I am far less interested in online wabi sabi, and far more interested in promoting good clothes and good tailoring. The notion that tailors are fungible technicians to be instructed and directed by clients impoverishes both those things. If there is anything worth fierce debate on a forum such as this, surely that point qualifies.
Pfffft. Your (actual) tailor is as much instructed by Mariano (and according to you, yourself) as much as my tailor is instructed by me. Your 'Rubinacci house style' has little more to do with Gennaro as my 'apropos style cut' has to do with my tailor. Both Gennaro and my tailor were guided by someone else in what to come up with. In your case, Mariano (and any decisions Mariano made that were OK-ed by you), and in my case - just me, no middleman, no tour guide.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

Well, to be fair, we touched on this earlier. RTW is a problematic basis for bespoke expectations because RTW limitations on construction, fit, and style do not apply in the bespoke world. Moreover, RTW purveyors are naturally incentivized to market a sort of correctness that complies with those limitations. Things that come down the runway or depicted in ads often look "good" in a certain way, but have flaws that should not be tolerated in competent bespoke.
Ah, but you've just spent many paragraphs defending the proposition that bespoke indeed does have its limitations on construction and style, and so you pick the bespoke maker that has the best mix of strengths/weaknesses for you. And bespoke makers - especially the ones that have a strong house style - aren't incentivised to propagate said house style when it avoids their weaknesses? Really? You really think Rubinacci won't do a strong shoulder for you because they actually genuinely cannot handle adjusting their cutting patterns to account for 8mm of shoulder pad, as opposed to it being that a strongly padded shoulder is... not what they do best?

 

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by Douglas

I'm going to need an example here. Why not use the RL image in this thread to illustrate the point? Vague generalities don't help us non-bespoke types in the least.
Sure, let's take a look.

1. The jacket is way too short to ever make sense on most bodies. Perhaps it works to establish the overall look they are going for on the runway, but it is hard to imagine many men on whom a jacket of the same proportionate length would not look ridiculous. Take a look at the buttoning point and the pocket placement. The jacket appears to button at his natural waist, which is good. But the hip pockets are placed well above the bottom buttons, whereas they should typically be in line with each other. Also, the jacket hem is at the exact same level as his sleeve hems. It is a very feminine cut in those senses, which is not necessarily bad, but its success depends on the wearer having a very narrow frame and even narrower hips. In short, the reason this jacket works to the degree it does is because of the peculiar dimensions of the model; a potential buyer cannot expect the same results on himself. 2. The sleeves have a strange line to them, like a flat 'S'. I've noticed that sleeves on good bespoke jackets tend to follow the curve of a flat 'C' instead--a parabola instead of a hyperbola. One might notice this sort of thing a lot of the time, but it makes for a less elegant silhouette, making bodies look more pear shaped. Again, if the model were not so rail thin, the effect might be more obvious here. 3. The jacket may be too slim. It is hard to tell because he's moving and a lot may have to do with the cloth, but there is a lot of wrinkling acute to the area where the jacket is most suppressed. I suspect it it simply too tight around the waist and hips. In other words, the look that you like is the model plus the jacket's, not the jacket's alone. This is one way in which RTW deals with it's limitations, by finding a model to fit the jacket to create the look envisioned and advertised, rather than creating a jacket to make buyers look their individual best.

 

[apropos]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

1. The jacket is way too short to ever make sense on most bodies. Perhaps it works to establish the overall look they are going for on the runway, but it is hard to imagine many men on whom a jacket of the same proportionate length would not look ridiculous. Take a look at the buttoning point and the pocket placement. The jacket appears to button at his natural waist, which is good. But the hip pockets are placed well above the bottom buttons, whereas they should typically be in line with each other. Also, the jacket hem is at the exact same level as his sleeve hems. It is a very feminine cut in those senses, which is not necessarily bad, but its success depends on the wearer having a very narrow frame and even narrower hips. In short, the reason this jacket works to the degree it does is because of the peculiar dimensions of the model; a potential buyer cannot expect the same results on himself.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. There is a 50-50 split in this man's height due to his jacket. You also do not see the base of his crotch, and this is with him walking to boot. Is his jacket really 'way too short to ever make sense on most bodies'?

And what about this photo of iammatt? Have a gander at his hip pockets. Now think about his buttoning point. He shares the same (infallible) tailoring house (that always knows what's best for each client) as you BTW.

​

This is il vecchio. Many litres of digital ink have been spilled on how wonderful/amazing he looks. Look at his hip pockets. Now think about his buttoning point. What do you see?

​

This is Michael Alden, founder of the London Lounge, and a very well dressed man. Same... error?

​

And finally, having your arms at the 'same length' as your jacket hem may naturally be a result of... having long arms relative to your body. With better nutrition, this is getting more common nowadays. Consider that as well, please.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

2. The sleeves have a strange line to them, like a flat 'S'. I've noticed that sleeves on good bespoke jackets tend to follow the curve of a flat 'C' instead--a parabola instead of a hyperbola. One might notice this sort of thing a lot of the time, but it makes for a less elegant silhouette, making bodies look more pear shaped. Again, if the model were not so rail thin, the effect might be more obvious here.
Wrong again. You have failed to factor in natural human movement in your assessment of what is an 'elegant silhouette'.

Take a gander at this photo - you see the same thing going on with vox's left (right on your screen) sleeve. So he's not wearing a 'good bespoke jacket'? ​

Originally Posted by mafoofan

3. The jacket may be too slim. It is hard to tell because he's moving and a lot may have to do with the cloth, but there is a lot of wrinkling acute to the area where the jacket is most suppressed. I suspect it it simply too tight around the waist and hips.
This is as much an imposition of personal taste as anything else, and has little objective worth.

 

[Lowndes]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

Sure, let's take a look.

1. The jacket is way too short to ever make sense on most bodies. Perhaps it works to establish the overall look they are going for on the runway, but it is hard to imagine many men on whom a jacket of the same proportionate length would not look ridiculous. Take a look at the buttoning point and the pocket placement. The jacket appears to button at his natural waist, which is good. But the hip pockets are placed well above the bottom buttons, whereas they should typically be in line with each other. Also, the jacket hem is at the exact same level as his sleeve hems. It is a very feminine cut in those senses, which is not necessarily bad, but its success depends on the wearer having a very narrow frame and even narrower hips. In short, the reason this jacket works to the degree it does is because of the peculiar dimensions of the model; a potential buyer cannot expect the same results on himself.

2. The sleeves have a strange line to them, like a flat 'S'. I've noticed that sleeves on good bespoke jackets tend to follow the curve of a flat 'C' instead--a parabola instead of a hyperbola. One might notice this sort of thing a lot of the time, but it makes for a less elegant silhouette, making bodies look more pear shaped. Again, if the model were not so rail thin, the effect might be more obvious here.

3. The jacket may be too slim. It is hard to tell because he's moving and a lot may have to do with the cloth, but there is a lot of wrinkling acute to the area where the jacket is most suppressed. I suspect it it simply too tight around the waist and hips.

In other words, the look that you like is the model plus the jacket's, not the jacket's alone. This is one way in which RTW deals with it's limitations, by finding a model to fit the jacket to create the look envisioned and advertised, rather than creating a jacket to make buyers look their individual best.

If that jacket looks bad then I want to look bad. That is one of the better looking DB's that I have seen.

 

[Trompe le Monde]

i dont care for you and your arguments but will not stop responding until you acknowledge my position.

 

[forex]

Originally Posted by Lowndes

If that jacket looks bad then I want to look bad. That is one of the better looking DB's that I have seen.

He didn't say that it looks bad,it looks good on the model but doesn't mean that it will look just as good on everyone else. It Ralph's cut work for you,you may get the same result.

 

[aj_del]

What about this RLPL suit ? The jacket does not appear to be as short as the earlier example

 

[Douglas]

First things first: I'm glad I asked. There are obviously two very demarcated sides to this, but I am learning something, so thanks to both sides.

Matt - I'll ask you since you're the one who's posited something affirmative here: I'm still confused. You've made some points about the stylistic choices made in the jacket shown. Whether or not those points are correct may be in dispute, but notwithstanding that, I don't see how these stylistic choices are distinctly RTW as opposed to bespoke. I mean, supposing you didn't know that this jacket were RTW by RL, couldn't you just as easily say that these were stylistic choices in keeping with a particular bespoke maker's house style?

 

[forex]

Good god,is he wearing pink socks?
The suit looks good on him,the question is: Is it going to look as good on you as it does on him.

 

[aj_del]

Originally Posted by forex

Is it going to look as good on you as it does on him.

fat chance

 

[Douglas]

Originally Posted by forex

Good god,is he wearing pink socks?
The suit looks good on him,the question is: Is it going to look as good on you as it does on him.

I guess the point is, why should Rubinacci's (or any bespoke tailor's "house style") cut look as good on you as it does on someone else? This whole argument has been set up as RTW vs. bespoke, and I'm not sure I understand why.

 

[DocHolliday]

Can we also talk about how this bespoke number defies the RTW paradigm?

Really, we have to leave the world of RTW and its influences behind when discussing bespoke, which is above such things.

 

[forex]

Originally Posted by aj_del

fat chance

I think that you will soon realize that most of the stuff that you post here and try to emulate will not work for you (in ready to wear form), trying to copy it into bespoke world might be a failure too.