Cleveland Cavaliers' big trade

[landho]

Briefly, I will just say that Kobe is the best player in the league, and the players of the league feel that way, too. LeBron is younger and bigger, but those are the only edges he has on Kobe.

To be discussed at length later!

 

[Baron]

I would have agreed until very recently. The question is really academic at this point. Kobe is more consistent, a far better shooter, a far better defender and immune to mental lapses, but LeBron is so unbelievably gifted physically and far better at involving his teammates. He is better suited to carry a team by himself than Kobe, but Kobe is a better lead man on an elite team. LeBron is not near his peak yet, and Kobe is three or four years into his peak and just about to start his decline phase.

 

[thinman]

Originally Posted by landho

Danny Ferry will throw Mike Brown under the bus to save his own ass, but let's be honest: his ass should be gone like King Kong as well.

Face it, Mike Brown is not a good coach, though given this trade I also question Ferry's abilities as a GM. Brown was clearly outcoached at times during the playoffs and only LeBron saved his behind. Now, he gets to figure out how to use Wallace, Ilgauskas, and Anderson Varejao in some reasonable rotation. IMO, Varejao's skills overlap Wallace's significantly. Although "Sideshow Bob" is obviously not as good as Wallace, neither of them can shoot anything other than a dunk. whacked, I haven't followed Big Ben's career recently. The talking heads on Sports Center last night were claiming his slide is due to being with an inferior team in Chicago, but I think you are correct. And even if he was on an inferior team in Chicago, I'm not convinced the Cavs are better as a team than the Bulls (other than LeBron, obviously).

Baron, your analysis of Kobe vs. LeBron is spot on. LeBron is a gifted passer and much, much better than Kobe in that aspect of the game, whereas Kobe has more polished skills right now. Eventually, LeBron will have a better career than Kobe, but Kobe is still the better player.

 

[Bradford]

I just don't remember any previous seasons with this many big trades in the NBA.

 

[thinman]

Originally Posted by Bradford

I just don't remember any previous seasons with this many big trades in the NBA.

I can't either. It's as if everyone thinks they're a player away from the championship. And they are, but for most teams that player is LeBron.

 

[landho]

Don't get me wrong; I think Mike Brown is garbage, too, and I think he should have been canned a while ago. There are numerous coaches (Brown, Woodson, Rivers [!], Thomas, et al.) and GMs (Ferry, McHale, Baylor, et al.) who I think should have been gone for quite some time now.

 

[whacked]

Originally Posted by Baron

You make a compelling argument.
I learned from the best

. This is posted a good while after your original statement:

Originally Posted by Baron

I would have agreed until very recently. The question is really academic at this point. Kobe is more consistent, a far better shooter, a far better defender and immune to mental lapses, but LeBron is so unbelievably gifted physically and far better at involving his teammates. He is better suited to carry a team by himself than Kobe, but Kobe is a better lead man on an elite team. LeBron is not near his peak yet, and Kobe is three or four years into his peak and just about to start his decline phase.

I guess it's not entirely objective, but Kobe's comparative advantages that you enlisted above, in sum, amount to about 70-80% of a player's overall value in my book, with defensive ability playing a slightly, if that, secondary role to offensive skills.

re: career comparison that thinman brought up. In the end, the most important factor would be how many championships each racks up under their belt. LeBron needs lots of help to catch up with Kobe in this department.

 

[landho]

At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if LeBron ends his career without a championship.

Of course, a lot can happen in fifteen years.

 

[Baron]

I would be shocked if LeBron didn't win multiple titles. He'll leave Cleveland if has to, or free agents will flock to him, but he's just too good to go without a ring. Which of the greatest all time players never won a ring? Only the ones that weren't good enough to truly lead a team to the top. I think Barkley was the best of these guys, but he happened to be up against Magic and Jordan for his whole career. Then you have Malone (a choker who couldn't carry a team) and Ewing (a second tier HOF center). Who else is there? Just some small guys, like Kidd and Iverson and Gervin and David Thompson - those guys are not nearly at LeBron's level. In the NBA, truly great players have too much impact to not win rings.

 

[landho]

The list of players never to have won a ring include: Karl Malone, Elgin Baylor, John Stockton, Charles Barkley, and Allen Iverson (some would chaff at Iverson's inclusion among such august company). The first four are among the best players of all time.

 

[whacked]

Originally Posted by Baron

I would be shocked if LeBron didn't win multiple titles. He'll leave Cleveland if has to, or free agents will flock to him, but he's just too good to go without a ring. Which of the greatest all time players never won a ring? Only the ones that weren't good enough to truly lead a team to the top. I think Barkley was the best of these guys, but he happened to be up against Magic and Jordan for his whole career. Then you have Malone (a choker who couldn't carry a team) and Ewing (a second tier HOF center). Who else is there? Just some small guys, like Kidd and Iverson and Gervin and David Thompson - those guys are not nearly at LeBron's level. In the NBA, truly great players have too much impact to not win rings.

Originally Posted by landho

The list of players never to have won a ring include: Karl Malone, Elgin Baylor, John Stockton, Charles Barkley, and Allen Iverson (some would chaff at Iverson's inclusion among such august company). The first four are among the best players of all time.

I agree w/ Baron that James most likely will win at least 1 title. I'm willing to bet though, at this point LeBron wants to end up nothing short of the Bird-Magic stratosophere (including, of course, Jordan, Wilt, Russell, Shaq and a few others); anything else would be at least minor disappointments. To do so, however, he'll need to win more than 2 championships. That's not easy in this day and age, considering recent developments.

 

[Saucemaster]

Originally Posted by landho

The list of players never to have won a ring include: Karl Malone, Elgin Baylor, John Stockton, Charles Barkley, and Allen Iverson (some would chaff at Iverson's inclusion among such august company).

They're just haters. AI is a one-of-a-kind player whose like we'll probably never see again.

 

[Baron]

Malone - great player but a choker. Not on LeBron's level. Baylor - great player who got very close a few times but couldn't get past Russell. Stockton - a small PG. The only small PG to lead his team to a title was Isaiah (Cousy rode Russell's coattails). Barkely - he was the best of this bunch, came up big in big games, carried his teams when he had too, a true warrior. He couldn't get past Jordan in the finals. Iverson - another small guy. I'd say LeBron is far more gifted than any of these guys, and he has an all around game more like Magic or Bird than a one dimensional game like most of these guys. LeBron can be a the lead ball handler, an amazing passer, can shoot from outside, and he's a absolute beast in the paint. You can't really compare him to anyone else. And he's only 22. Barring injury or unforseen personal problems, he's going to go down as a top 5 player of all time.

 

[life_interrupts]

Originally Posted by Baron

I would be shocked if LeBron didn't win multiple titles. He'll leave Cleveland if has to, or free agents will flock to him, but he's just too good to go without a ring. Which of the greatest all time players never won a ring? Only the ones that weren't good enough to truly lead a team to the top. I think Barkley was the best of these guys, but he happened to be up against Magic and Jordan for his whole career. Then you have Malone (a choker who couldn't carry a team) and Ewing (a second tier HOF center). Who else is there? Just some small guys, like Kidd and Iverson and Gervin and David Thompson - those guys are not nearly at LeBron's level. In the NBA, truly great players have too much impact to not win rings.
LeBron will have to leave Cleveland to do it. He could very well could end up the best player to never win a championship. He'd join Elgin Baylor, Pearl Monroe, Dominque Wilkins, and those listed above for all-time greats without rings.

 

[landho]

In recent memory, Tony Parker is a small point guard who led his team to a championship. By "led," I assume you mean someone who played an integral role rather than just contributed significantly. (I'm parsing pretty finely here, I know.) Because otherwise you have Derek Fisher, Jason Williams, B. J. Armstrong, Kenny Smith, et al.

I am not arguing against LeBron's greatest, but it's a little premature to say that he will win a championship. I should qualify my earlier statement by saying that I will be surprised if Cleveland wins a championship. I mean, I would have also said that I would be surprised if Pau Gasol ever won a championship, but I certainly wouldn't say that now.

Now, I won't get too deep into this discussion, but I will say that Karl Malone is arguably the best power forward of all time (but Tim Duncan probably gets the nod there) and is the archetypal "classic" power forward--he could shoot, pass, rebound, hold position down low, and was the consummate "dirty" man, albeit one who could score 27 points a night. Also, he never stopped developing his game. It's unfair to call him a choker; David Robinson would have retired with that label firmly branded on him had the Spurs not won the lottery in 1997. Malone led his team to back to back NBA finals, and the Jazz were not necessarily underdogs in those matchups (even though they were playing against the Jordan Bulls). Stockton is probably the best pure point guard of all time. Elgin Baylor made eight (!) Finals appearances without ever winning one, and his career numbers are "LeBronlike." Kobe, Duncan, Nash, and Dirk can't play forever, I guess; I don't think LeBron will win a championship in the next five years.