BMW 1M -- I want!!!

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

I had my extensively (but mostly invisibly) tweaked E46 M3 detailed last week.

I have to say, it looks pretty damn good compared to most things new.

Damned straight. That car is gorgeous. Is yours stick or SMG?

 

[gnatty8]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

Oh, give me a break. Whatever belligerence I expressed was perfectly proportionate to your own. The difference is that you had no basis for your assertion that there's no way the 1M will match or outperform the M3. You jumped to the conclusion that I must not know what I'm talking about, in the midst of claiming that torque doesn't matter and being completely ignorant of how the M3 stacks up against a base 135i. Tuck in your tail if you like, but don't blame me for the fact that you overstated an opinion you very badly wanted to believe but could not support.

As for this "better" issue: there is no question that the 1-series outperforms the 3-series, engine for engine. It's a matter of basic physics, as confirmed by every damned, reputable car magazine. Same power, same parts, less weight. So, perhaps you shouldn't be so quick to snicker at those silly "go-karts."



I'll be interested to see if the F20 1-series weighs any less. Still, the current 1 is about as heavy and large as the previous generation 3 (the E46). So, I suspect the real issue is how heavy the 3-series and all other BMWs have become. At this rate, the next 3-series will weigh in over 4,000 lbs. Depressing.



I have to imagine this is exactly what they're doing, though. Otherwise, the 1M makes very little sense. The only people looking to buy it will be those who want the absolute rawest BMW driving experience available, and they're only selling it for a year, so I can't imagine they're hoping for a huge commercial success. I think the idea is to restore some luster to the M division and make-up for garbage like the X6 M.



Well, I think the balance has shifted over the past few generations of cars. As you've noted, BMWs have gotten heavier and heavier, as they've gotten more and more tech-laden and comfort oriented. If the 1M succeeds in replicating the feel of a E36 or E46 M3, to say nothing of reviving the spirit of the E30, it will be the "rawest" BMW currently available while maintaining the old balance that made the company famous.



I'm not saying it doesn't happen--just that they are very odd cars to consider in the same breadth. If you want all-out performance, the Corvette wins hands down. But, unlike the M3, it is a true sports car with only two seats, a much less refined ride, much less comfort and luxury, and inferior soft factors like steering precision and road feel. The M3 is a superior daily driver and will provide a far more "refined" experience all-around. So, yes, it is hard for me to imagine how someone could have such a hard time choosing between the two.

You have an interesting definition of belligerence. I went back and re-read my posts, and unless I am totally tone deaf, I have a hard time finding belligerence in them. I also do not recall saying torque does not matter, only that a printed statistic about torque on the internet was not going to sway me one way or another, but a real life encounter with torque by driving a car certainly will matter to me. In other words, my point on reading stats on the internet was only that I normally do not make a decision on purchasing something like a car by reading about them on the internet. I go out and drive them and compare how they feel in real life.

 

[voxsartoria]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

Damned straight. That car is gorgeous. Is yours stick or SMG?

Stick. Autosolutions short shifter, which would appeal to you because it:

- it's a machinist's wet dream. Every part is 10x the quality of stock.

- works great.

- once installed, it can't be seen. Only the driver feels it with every snick-snick shift.

Forgot to say that I have the Stroes clutch arm, which replaces the stock plastic bits with a machined, and far stiffer, metal arm.

- B

 

[ramuman]

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

Stick. Autosolutions short shifter, which would appeal to you because it:

- it's a machinist's wet dream. Every part is 10x the quality of stock.

- works great.

- once installed, it can't be seen. Only the driver feels it with every snick-snick shift.

Forgot to say that I have the Stroes clutch arm, which replaces the stock plastic bits with a machined, and far stiffer, metal arm.

- B

Are you still going to sell your soul to the other German devil for a GT3?

 

[Roikins]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

Well, the original M3 was turbocharged, so in a way its in keeping with tradition.

You're thinking of the F1 car that used a turbo on the S14.

 

[A Y]

Originally Posted by HRoi

i'm getting the urge to tinker with my car, but prolly won't track it extensively....

Which suspension you get depends on what you'd like out of it. GC makes good stuff, but you had better know exactly what you want (as in technical specs, not qualitative specs) if you go that route, especially for something relatively new like the 1.

Originally Posted by Roikins

You're thinking of the F1 car that used a turbo on the S14.

They turbocharged the M12 for F1. In qualifying trim, it was said to make more horsepower than they could measure at the time, which is more than 1300 HP. The M12's designer, Paul Rosche, did design the S14, along with the amazing S70/2 in the McLaren F1.

--Andre

 

[LaoHu]

Late to this thread, but had to comment on this post.

Originally Posted by ramuman

I love the consistency across models and generations. You could look at one tiny portion of the interior of a BMW and instantly know that it is a BMW. The design of the stalks, the knobs, etc.

Very true. In looking at the pics of the interior I was instantly reminded of the BMW I owned once upon a time, a 1979 320i. Talk about consistency!

 

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

Stick. Autosolutions short shifter, which would appeal to you because it:

- it's a machinist's wet dream. Every part is 10x the quality of stock.

- works great.

- once installed, it can't be seen. Only the driver feels it with every snick-snick shift.

Forgot to say that I have the Stroes clutch arm, which replaces the stock plastic bits with a machined, and far stiffer, metal arm.

- B

Sounds very nice. I was looking at used E46 M3s a couple months ago, just out of curiosity, and found that virtually all of the ones on the market been modded to hell--usually with some very obnoxious and ugly garbage. A damned shame.

 

[sonick]

Wow. I am a fan of early 90's cars, and there aren't many brand new cars on the market (if at all) that actually garner DESIRE from me... Except maybe this one

 

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by gnatty8

You have an interesting definition of belligerence. I went back and re-read my posts, and unless I am totally tone deaf, I have a hard time finding belligerence in them. I also do not recall saying torque does not matter, only that a printed statistic about torque on the internet was not going to sway me one way or another, but a real life encounter with torque by driving a car certainly will matter to me. In other words, my point on reading stats on the internet was only that I normally do not make a decision on purchasing something like a car by reading about them on the internet. I go out and drive them and compare how they feel in real life.
Granted, nothing is a replacement for experiencing a car behind the driver's seat. But in predicting one car's performance versus another, it doesn't matter how much time you've spent behind the wheel of one if you haven't experienced the other. So, I objected to was your assertion that the 1M would certainly not match the current M3 in performance. In making such an analysis, torque figures certainly do matter, particularly since the two cars will be mechanically near twins--you outright dismissed the significance of torque, which is what led me to question how you could have any sound basis for your conclusions. Ultimately, the 1M is essentially a lighter, smaller M3 (same chassis parts, same brakes, M differential, etc.), with less horsepower, but more torque (and both available at much lower RPMs). Given that a standard 135i is almost as fast as the M3 as is, the safe money is on the 1M outperforming the M3. As I pointed out, it comes down to basic physics, and the numbers I posted earlier are very telling. The M3's advantages will likely be in engine feel, stability (particularly at high speeds), utility, and comfort. I imagine that is exactly why BMW is unlikely to make the DCT available on the 1M. Transmission for transmission, the 1M will likely outperform the M3 (although BMW will underrate the 1M in its own figures). However, the DCT improves the M3's 0-60 time by several tenths of a second. If they leave the 1M a stick-only car, the fastest M3 will still be faster than the fastest 1M.

 

[gnatty8]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

Granted, nothing is a replacement for experiencing a car behind the driver's seat. But in predicting one car's performance versus another, it doesn't matter how much time you've spent behind the wheel of one if you haven't experienced the other. What I objected to was your assertion that the 1M would certainly not match the current M3 in performance. In making such an analysis, torque figures certainly do matter, particularly since the two cars will be mechanically near twins--you outright dismissed the significance of torque, which is what led me to question how you could have any sound basis for your conclusions.

Ultimately, the 1M is essentially a lighter, smaller M3 (same chassis parts, same brakes, M differential, etc.), with less horsepower, but more torque (and both available at much lower RPMs). Given that a standard 135i is almost as fast as the M3 as is, the safe money is on the 1M outperforming the M3. As I pointed out, it comes down to basic physics, and the numbers I posted earlier are very telling. The M3's advantages will likely be in engine feel, stability (particularly at high speeds), utility, and comfort.

Can you direct me to the part of my post where I outright dismissed the significance of torque in predicting performance?

And I drove the 1 series, I just didn't like it. Granted, I have mot driven the 1M, for obvious reasons, but then neither have you I suppose.

 

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by gnatty8

Can you direct me to the part of my post where I outright dismissed the significance of torque in predicting performance?

Here:

Originally Posted by gnatty8

You lost me with all the discussion of torque, for which I don't really give a **** to tell the truth. I drive an M3 because they are fun to drive. I couldn't even tell you how much torque it produces or even why that's important.

Originally Posted by gnatty8

And I drove the 1 series, I just didn't like it. Granted, I have mot driven the 1M, for obvious reasons, but then neither have you I suppose.

Well, nobody's driven a 1M--except for BMW staff. I'm not going to pretend I can tell you which car is more "fun," as that's not only subjective, but impossible to talk about without having actually driven both cars. However, hard performance metrics are objective and highly predictable given certain figures--even more so since we know the 1M and M3 are so mechanically similar. The differences between them only weigh in favor of the 1M.

 

[TheFoo]

Test-drive video, in car:

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I don't speak German, but supposedly the journalist in the passenger seat notes that the car feels like it has much more power than the 135i, at least 350HP, to which the BMW test driver responds that he can't confirm specs, but it is safe to assume the car has M-worthy power. The journalist also notes that the car handles as if it is much lighter than the 135i (!!!).

 

[Roikins]

Originally Posted by A Y

They turbocharged the M12 for F1. In qualifying trim, it was said to make more horsepower than they could measure at the time, which is more than 1300 HP. The M12's designer, Paul Rosche, did design the S14, along with the amazing S70/2 in the McLaren F1.

--Andre

Of which the e30 M3's S14 gets its block from.

 

[ramuman]

What confuses me is why the E92 M3 is so heavy compared to the E46. That is, what did they add to make it heavier? The engine is lighter, the roof is lighter and I'm sure the unspring weight, suspension, and the drivetrain overall weigh about the same as they used to. Is it the frame, the subframe, or the fittings that make it so heavy? It's listed at almost 300 lbs heavier and I can't imagine where that came from. This isn't a snarky comment, I'm just curious.