Million dollar Guadagnini violin - thrashed!

Originally Posted by Violinist

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There are untold amounts of research about this.... there are so many arguments that it's hard to sum it up.

There's been a lot of chemical analysis done on varnish (which many believe is the secret). The very best wood is being used by the top makers today (balkan maple), and all the techniques. There are a lot of great modern violins now which makes it easier for young pros and students who cannot afford a great old italian instrument. Even for highly successful violinists, there's often the choice between buying a great violin or buying a house.

I haven't found a modern violin that could be a genuine Strad (one of the good ones), but there's more than enough which come close enough to violins in the 500k+ range.

Thanks, that's interesting.

Originally Posted by Concordia

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If we knew that, every professional violinist (or serious student) would play on a Strad-level instrument that cost them $20,000.

Gotcha, thanks. Is there a consensus view that the aging process itself is a significant factor?
As you can tell, I'm seriously ignorant about this stuff.

Originally Posted by lawyerdad

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Gotcha, thanks. Is there a consensus view that the aging process itself is a significant factor?
As you can tell, I'm seriously ignorant about this stuff.

Maybe.

Most violins do sound a little better after they've been broken in. Also, violinists can tell if an old violin hasn't been played recently, or has been played badly. So there's some of that going on. Vibrating does allow a fiddle to settle into its adjustment. Some have argued that it breaks down the cellular structure of the wood; some of those people are also suspected of peddling BS for commercial reasons.

The question of age as age is interesting. Nobody's totally sure about what the old varnish was, and what sort of prep went onto the wood. Oxidation might be obscuring clues about that, even as it benefits the sound. Or so one theory goes.

Another thing I've noticed but done no controlled study on-- a lot of older violins feel lighter to me. Whether that is a function of weight or balance I couldn't say. And you'd have to do some work to figure out if the density of older wood (or, at least, the older wood in good violins) is less than for modern instruments-- or they just use less wood.

Finally, speaking with my historian's (and financial person's) hat on, I'd guess that there is a lot of survivor bias. Good violins get held onto and maintained, crappy ones get given to the orphanage. Or something like that. Sturgeon's Law operates in the violinmaking craft as much as any other. Of course, that doesn't explain why 90% of Stradivari's output was very fine or better.

Originally Posted by lawyerdad

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Gotcha, thanks. Is there a consensus view that the aging process itself is a significant factor?
As you can tell, I'm seriously ignorant about this stuff.

It's kind of inconclusive, since Strads and Guarneris were the best violins in their day just after they were made. Violins do get better with age, but the fundamentals have to be there at conception. An old ****** violin is still an old ****** violin.

Originally Posted by lawyerdad

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Gotcha, thanks. Is there a consensus view that the aging process itself is a significant factor? As you can tell, I'm seriously ignorant about this stuff.
"These instruments are famous for the quality of their sound. There have been many failed attempts to explain and reproduce the sound quality. One idea was that Stradivari used wood from an old cathedral to build his instruments, but tree-ring dating has shown this to be false. Another theory is the idea that wood grown during the Little Ice Age (Maunder Minimum ~1645-1750) was used to construct Stradivari's instruments. This theory bases itself upon the high density of this wood; some consider it 'ideal' for making stringed instruments. Trees that grew during this freezing period contained tree rings which were closer together and denser than would be produced in more temperate conditions. Further evidence for the "ice age theory", comes from a simple examination of the dense growth rings in the wood used in Stradivari's instruments. Yet another possible explanation is that the wood originated and was harvested from the forests of northern Croatia. This javor wood is known for its extreme density due the slow growth from harsh Croatian winters. Croatian wood was a commodity traded by Venetian merchants of this era and is still used for crafting musical instruments by local luthiers to this day. Some believe that a special wood glue was used in Stradivari's instruments, partly accounting for the high quality of the sound. While the sound of Stradivari's instruments still has not been fully explained by modern research tools, devices such as the scanning laser vibrometer are aiding researchers in testing the theory that the careful shaping of belly and back plate, in order to "tune" their resonant frequencies, may be an important factor. Texas A&M University biochemist Joseph Nagyvary succeeded in making a violin somewhere near the quality of a Stradivari by leaving the wood to soak in brine. Because of the lack of land in Venice, during that period imported wood was often stored in the seawater of the Venetian Lagoon, where a type of decomposition had a slight effect on the wood. Nagyvary managed to acquire wood shavings from a Stradivarius violin, and under a microscope he found the natural filter plates in the pores between the tracheids were gone. He also treated the wood with a preparation of borax in the manner of Stradivari, who used it to prevent infestation. By late 2003, Nagyvary refined his techniques and produced a violin that was tested in a duel with the Leonardo da Vinci Stradivarius of 1725. Both violins were played in each of four selections of music by violinist Dalibor Karvay behind a screen to an audience of 600 attended by 160 trained musicians and 303 regular concert goers. This was the first public comparison of a Stradivari with a contemporary instrument before a large audience where the audience would cast ballots on the performance quality of each violin. The consensus was that Nagyvary's instrument surpassed the Stradivarius in each category by a small margin." http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=...5880000&page=2

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Originally Posted by Violinist

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There's an overwhelming concensus that Nagyvary is a moron and a quack. I don't know of anyone who takes him seriously. He buys blank rough works from China then soaks them in piss and ****. His violins are awful.
Awesome. Are you like the Tony Bourdain of the classical music industry? How soon can I buy your books?

Another factor is that the great instruments are continually taken off the market because of donations to museums &c. To speak only of the instance that I know the most about, Heifetz donated his Guarneri to the California Palace of the Legion of Honor rather than leave it to his heirs, who could have sold it for a tidy profit. The museum stages a competition once a year in which the finalists get to play the fiddle. The rest of the year, it is under glass.

Anyway, there are fewer 18th century instrumetns on the market, so naturally the price must go up, up and away.

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"According to legend, on nights with a clear full moon, the master journeyed from Cremona to the high Alps, where he selected impressive spruce trees and peeled off a section of bark. He then placed his ear against the trunk, knocked on the wood with a hammer and listened. If he was satisfied with the resonance, the tree was cut down. Stradivari is thought to have benefited from a series of hard winters from the mid-17th century to roughly 1715. The trees grew more slowly than usual, the wood was close-grained and denser, and some say that it transmits acoustic waves better than wood grown during warmer periods. Researchers at Cambridge University, however, suspect that the secret of the remarkable acoustics from Cremona lies within the reddish layer of varnish on each Stradivarius. In 1988, a research team analyzed a chip of varnish from a cello made in 1711 and discovered a wafer-thin layer of primer below the layer of varnish, which chemically resembles Pozzuolana earth, a volcanic ash that is used to produce cement in northern Italy. Stradivari may have made a mixture of ash, egg whites and water and applied this to the wood to create the magical sound." ... "The violins from Cremona stand above the others. The wood. The sound. And right at the top, far above the others, you have the Stradivariuses." The best soloists play on them. "It took a Stradivarius to open my ears," says Anne-Sophie Mutter, 44. Most people are spellbound by them. The American Joshua Bell, 39, who is the proud owner of "Gibson" from 1713, says he fell in love with this violin after playing it for only a few seconds. He says it can "be light but also has depth, the perfect balance." Dutch violinist Janine Jansen, 29, senses something about her "Barrere" Stradivarius that is "almost magical, that I haven't found in a modern instrument." She plays exclusively with this small marvel because it "has such a flexible sound that it matches music from any era." Leonidas Kavakos, 40, sings the praises of "the volume of the sound, the sweetness of the tone, the overtones and the timbre of these great, unrivaled violins." The artistic director of the Camerata Salzburg plays the "Earl of Falmouth" Strad from 1692. He recalls the "fantastic moment" decades ago when, as a young musician, he first held a Stradivarius in his hands. Anne-Sophie Mutter alternately places two very different Stradivariuses under her chin. Her "Emiliani" from 1703, says Mutter, sounds "superb" but it lacks "a dimension: It has no edginess. I miss the unbridled power. I need this roughness for the eruptive moments of the Beethoven sonatas. You need it for Brahms, Sibelius and contemporary works." To meet these challenges, she plays her "Lord Dunn-Raven" Stradivarius from 1710. http://www.spiegel.de/international/...5745-2,00.html

Didn't you all see The Red Violin? It was the wife's blood that made it special.

Originally Posted by Manton

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Another factor is that the great instruments are continually taken off the market because of donations to museums &c. To speak only of the instance that I know the most about, Heifetz donated his Guarneri to the California Palace of the Legion of Honor rather than leave it to his heirs, who could have sold it for a tidy profit. The museum stages a competition once a year in which the finalists get to play the fiddle. The rest of the year, it is under glass.

Anyway, there are fewer 18th century instrumetns on the market, so naturally the price must go up, up and away.

Well Heifetz's Dolphin Strad belongs to the Nippon foundation which loans Midori her del Gesu. It's being used by Alexander Barantschik of the SFS. His Tonnoni (his practice violin), he gave to Sherry Kloss, one of his students. His del Gesu is given out more often than just once a year, there isn't really a competition as far as I know, because there is no yearly term or formal time frame. They'll just loan it out to great players comming to SF for a concert.

Most of the instruments which have been taken off the market are loaned out to players.

It's been a while since I lived there, but 10-15 years ago, there was a formal contest, with a recital. I went every year, back in the day.

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I don't remember what it was called. 10-15 is in any case innacurate. It was more like 15-20.