Jil Sander Sartorial (MTM)

What's the point in having $$$ if you can't buy what you like?

Seriously, if SoCal wants a JS cut, he's got a better shot of going to JS rather than taking his chance on a tailor that might or might not get it right. The chances of improving or duplicating faithfully are there, but the chances of getting it wrong are substantial, not to mention costly and frustrating. Then it's back to JS to get what he wanted in the first place.

Originally Posted by Thomas

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What's the point in having $$$ if you can't buy what you like?

Seriously, if SoCal wants a JS cut, he's got a better shot of going to JS rather than taking his chance on a tailor that might or might not get it right. The chances of improving or duplicating faithfully are there, but the chances of getting it wrong are substantial, not to mention costly and frustrating. Then it's back to JS to get what he wanted in the first place.

+1 All Bespoke tailors have their own look, what they do is accommodate to your body quirks & cosmetic details (fabric lining, fabric outer, buttons pockets etc.). Try going into one & say I want this (showing a picture or sample..), this is akin to going to a hairdresser salon with a picture of "X" when you look like "Y" & the end result will be "Z"..

Originally Posted by SoCal2NYC

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aren't some new creative force no matter how much you spend or where you go).

I hope no one expects to become an artist by commissioning a suit, but I think too many people incorrectly pigeonhole bespoke house styles as inexpressive, rigid things that can't reflect the wearer's personality and style.

--Andre

Originally Posted by el Guapo WOngO!

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+1 All Bespoke tailors have their own look, what they do is accommodate to your body quirks & cosmetic details (fabric lining, fabric outer, buttons pockets etc.). Try going into one & say I want this (showing a picture or sample..), this is akin to going to a hairdresser salon with a picture of "X" when you look like "Y" & the end result will be "Z"..

As Andre correctly pointed out, bespoke tailors are not that rigid and inflexible. There is nothing extraordinary about the Jil Sander cut - it is a slim, unstructured garment - nothing more. Any bespoke tailor should be able to copy that.

I'm not saying that Socal shouldn't order from Jil Sander if that is what he wants (after all, its his money). But I'm tired of people with minimal bespoke experience imagining what interacting with a tailor is like.

And what is to be said of people not realizing that there is more to clothes than just $ and shape.

I'm going to Jil Sander because I feel the fit of the suits suit me well. I'm also going because I like a lot of the RTW fashions, the advertising, the fragrances, the history and the conceptual/intangible qualities of the brand.

I also like that someone's "personality and style" can't be reflective from a global brand and that it can only come from you and a tailor in his independent shop.

In other words...

your a fran.

So I walk into Saks, looking to browse. Salesman comes over.

"We have some very nice Armani over here, sir."
"No thanks, I'm not interested in Armani."
"It's a very flattering cut. I think it would look good on you."
"I appreciate it, but no."
"Women love a man in Armani."
"No thank you."
"It's our best seller, sir. Very popular with younger guys."

And yet I still didn't want the Armani.

Originally Posted by SoCal2NYC

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I'm going to Jil Sander because I feel the fit of the suits suit me well. I'm also going because I like a lot of the RTW fashions, the advertising, the fragrances, the history and the conceptual/intangible qualities of the brand.

If you enjoy the many things associated with the Jil Sander brand, does that mean its important to you that others know you are wearing a Jil Sander suit? Otherwise, how will they associate you with the advertising, fragrances, history, etc., that you value? Or are you merely interested in knowing of your own association?

I admit, I don't understand the notion of buying into a brand. I know what a brand is, and how it functions, but it doesn't make sense to me why the appeal of one item should be increased by others that you are not buying merely because they share the same label.

Of course it is for me and my own taste and sensibilities.

If others didn't buy into a brand there would not be the B&S forum for $4,000 Brioni jackets for $1300 or the online sellers of the best $1,000 shoes for $300 discussed on this forum.

Originally Posted by SoCal2NYC

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Of course it is for me and my own taste and sensibilities.

If others didn't buy into a brand there would not be the B&S forum for $4,000 Brioni jackets for $1300 or the online sellers of the best $1,000 shoes for $300 discussed on this forum.

I should clarify my point. I think brand names carry great value when: (1) information about new products is scarce or difficult to evaluate, and (2) when the quality of one good can be infered from another.

Thus, in a universe where suit quality and fit are more or less voodoo arts, and all I know is that Jil Sander sells lots suits to happy customers, it makes sense to rely on the Jil Sander name when picking a suit for myself. So, in that way, I am buying into the brand.

However, in this universe, I don't believe suit quality and fit are voodoo. Experience and knowledge teach a lot. If I buy into Rubinacci's brand, it's because I understand the firm makes good suits along the parameters I evaluate along. The brand has value to me, but it is specific to suits and closely related things. For example, I would be willing to rely on the Rubinacci brand when picking someone to make me an overcoat.

But, would I buy a Rubinacci fragrance? I would ascribe little or no value to the fact the fragrance is 'Rubinacci', and shop it without bias against other brands of fragrance.

So, I can understand if you happen to like Jil Sander's suits, sportswear, fragrances, etc., individually--but I don't understand why one would affect the value of another, particularly when information is not scare or hard to evaluate.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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So, I can understand if you happen to like Jil Sander's suits, sportswear, fragrances, etc., individually--but I don't understand why one would affect the value of another, particularly when information is not scare or hard to evaluate.

So you don't understand why it does...but, those who it can snare shouldn't be looked down upon.

Originally Posted by SoCal2NYC

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So you don't understand why it does...but, those who it can snare shouldn't be looked down upon.

I'm not looking down at you; I was just curious why or how you infer the value of one Jil Sander item from another. Clearly you really have faith in the brand; but how deep does it go? Say Jil Sander cologne was terrible, how deeply would that hurt your impression of the overall brand? How would it affect your impression of the suits?

It is like being a sports fan. For whatever reason, he likes being loyal to the Jil Sander and Thom Browne team and buying their merchandise. If that makes him happy, so be it. Some people walk around wearing jerseys with their favorite player's name on it. People like what they like and get pleasure out of displaying their affiliation and loyalties for whatever reasons. SoCal isn't spending my money, so it is no skin off my back.

To go back to my original point, I never said SoCal should drop Jil Sander (or stop supporting Thom), only that he try bespoke too. It won't make him feel part of the team, but he may still like it.

Originally Posted by dopey

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People like what they like and get pleasure out of displaying their affiliation and loyalties for whatever reasons.

I don't deny people choose what they choose--but that's hardly illuminating. What's the fun in having a forum unless we can discuss why?

At any rate, SoCal already stated he has no interest in displaying affiliation to others; as I understand it, in some way, his affiliation pleases himself.

Originally Posted by SoCal2NYC

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I also like that someone's "personality and style" can't be reflective from a global brand and that it can only come from you and a tailor in his independent shop.

I didn't say that. You basically have to find a prepackaged look that reflects your sensibilities with OTR. And it seems like you've found it with Jil Sander.

--Andre