21 Shot dead at Virginia Tech

Originally Posted by zjpj83

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LK, seriously, what are you talking about? Nobody's trying to do anything of the sort. They are simply saying what happened. Some nutcase shot over 50 people.

Your advocacy for "understaning" makes absolutely no sense. What exactly are you asking us to do? Empathize with the murderer? Should we erect a statue in his honor?

I'm not attempting to defend the shooter.

My point was that it is an error for others to label these people as "evil" or "insane" when in all probablity they are no such thing; and also considering that evil is such a fluid concept.

Originally Posted by lefty

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I don't know anything about guns.

What is a handgun that can shoot 32 rounds in what I assume is rapid succession and reloaded in 2 seconds with another 32 bullets used for?

lefty

Originally Posted by globetrotter

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pretty much exactly what it was used for today.

Except, almost never in the history of time. Most "regular" people who buy those giant magazines, I imagine, buy them either for "emergency" purposes (having to fight off a lot of people or some other delusion) or more likely, for the sheer absurdity and fun of them when they go out shooting cans at the nearest public "recreation area".

No civilian pistol that I know of comes with those giant magazines because they are awkward, but they are available for several popular handgun series such as Glock and Beretta. In both cases the manufacturer offers a fully automatic version of their pistol (the Glock 18 IIRC and the Beretta 93F) which are only sold to law enforcement and AFAIK are generally used by protective services such as diplomatic bodyguards, etc. They are impractical and unwieldy. But for that purpose, a very large magazine makes some sense as the gun will go through ammunition very rapidly.

Originally Posted by zjpj83

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Your statement makes no sense.
My point was that since people are easily inclinded to call anyone, say a terrorist as Evil, then evil mut be a very simple force. If evil were such a Simple Force, then there would be no prolonged and complex debate over the origins and nature of Evil.

Originally Posted by LabelKing

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I'm not attempting to defend the shooter.

My point was that it is an error for others to label these people as "evil" or "insane" when in all probablity they are no such thing; and also considering that evil is such a fluid concept.

I think you are reading too much into these adjectives. I don't think anyone at this point is trying to make a clinical diagnosis of his psychological condition. Rather, they are simply saying that shooting over 50 people is a crazy thing to do (i.e. crazy as in "senseless;" rather than crazy as in "mentally deranged").

Originally Posted by zjpj83

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I think you are reading too much into these adjectives. I don't think anyone at this point is trying to make a clinical diagnosis of his psychological condition. Rather, they are simply saying that shooting over 50 people is a crazy thing to do (i.e. crazy as in "senseless;" rather than crazy as in "mentally deranged").
My money says it's safe to say he was mentally deranged.

Originally Posted by zjpj83

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I think you are reading too much into these adjectives. I don't think anyone at this point is trying to make a clinical diagnosis of his psychological condition. Rather, they are simply saying that shooting over 50 people is a crazy thing to do (i.e. crazy as in "senseless;" rather than crazy as in "mentally deranged").
Either way, while no one on the forum has yet to make such a blanket statement, I'm quite sure there are a lot of other people who are quick on the draw to say things like that. Particularly contentious for me is the term 'evil' but then there are more things in heaven and earth.

I'm typing this as I listen to the live press conference in the background.

Quite amazing the questions being asked by the journalists.

What are you doing to prevent this from happening again? Why weren't the school in total lockdown?

should the president of VT and the police chief resign as a consequence of such tragedy?

Originally Posted by globetrotter

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like I had said earlier, this is one of those cases where an armed individual could have influenced the situation. in many of the cases in israel where a palestinian shooter opened fire on random civillians in a mall or market or street - the one who ended up killing the terrorist was a civillian with a pistol.
Security measures that mirror procedures in the middle east east sounds like regression rather that progession to me. The idea of being in a classroom with armed students is not very appealing. What's more, I don't think it's a good idea for civillians to be ever carrying guns in public. I prefer your earlier suggestion much more (having an armed personal on standbye).

Originally Posted by LabelKing

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My point was that since people are easily inclinded to call anyone, say a terrorist as Evil, then evil mut be a very simple force.

If evil were such a Simple Force, then there would be no prolonged and complex debate over the origins and nature of Evil.

I don't know why you would come to that conclusion.

I agree with you to the extent that evil exists, I don't think that it is a black and white, all or nothing kind of thing. That is, I don't think people are either pure evil or pure good.

That said, I don't see how it follows that our capacity to identify people who commit evil acts, or who have evil within them and thereby act with evil, means that it is therefore a "simple" thing that, in your words, "would have been solved a long time ago." Just because it's simple doesn't mean we know how to solve it.

Originally Posted by j

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. Most "regular" people who buy those giant magazines, I imagine, buy them either for "emergency" purposes (having to fight off a lot of people or some other delusion) .
yes, what I meant was that they were designed to allow one person to kill a lot of people. that this hasn't really happened yet, or that the vast majoirty of users use them to play games, is another point.

That's too many lives ruined. But I am not really surprised to hear of it -- when I was in college, I used to sit with two female friends of mine in a student activities room with maybe fifty other students in it, and many times I wondered what I would do if some guy came in there shooting. I tried to sit where we could jump into one of the adjacent offices, but I realized there was really nothing I would be able to do. Absolutely nothing. There was too much room to cross to get to him, too little cover, and by the time anyone responded it would be too late for too many.

I remembered rueing the fact that of all the places I most wanted to employ my CCW permit, the place I likely needed it the most (witness a half-dozen students mugged by non-students in the last year, commonly at pipe-point) was barred by policy.

Regards,
Huntsman

Originally Posted by zjpj83

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I don't know why you would come to that conclusion. I agree with you to the extent that evil exists, I don't think that it is a black and white, all or nothing kind of thing. That is, I don't think people are either pure evil or pure good. That said, I don't see how it follows that our capacity to identify people who commit evil acts, or who have evil within them and thereby act with evil, means that it is therefore a "simple" thing that, in your words, "would have been solved a long time ago." Just because it's simple doesn't mean we know how to solve it.
I was simply saying that people are so quick to call people as Evil thereby implying evil-ness must be a very simple thing to grasp since so many people are under the delusion that they are so apt to distinguish Evil. Also, my usage of "understanding" was not to symphathize with the instigator; rather, to understand the actions and compulsions of the act and the reasoning, or lack thereof.

Originally Posted by lawyerdad

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This is conclusory punditry. You have no way of knowing whether that would have made a difference. You also have no way of knowing, if students could freely keep guns on campus, how many innocent people would be killed through pure accidents, drunken/drugged behavior, post-adolescent impulsiveness, etc.
In 2002 a student opened fire at Virginia’s Appalachian School of Law, killing the dean, a professor and another student. Three others were wounded in the attack. In the crucial moments after the rampage, a few students moved quickly to try to apprehend the suspect and stop the shooting. One of the students went to his car to retrieve his handgun since the Law School predictively did not allow CCW holders to carry on school property. Once he retrieved his handgun he confronted the shooter and forced him to surrender his weapon. You may find it incredible, based on your line of questioning, but some states allow students to keep guns on campus (Utah since 2004 for example). Can you find media reports on the" innocent people would be killed through pure accidents, drunken/drugged behavior, post-adolescent impulsiveness, etc." since Utah allowed guns on campuses that were caused by students with CCW permits?

Originally Posted by j

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Except, almost never in the history of time. Most "regular" people who buy those giant magazines, I imagine, buy them either for "emergency" purposes (having to fight off a lot of people or some other delusion) or more likely, for the sheer absurdity and fun of them when they go out shooting cans at the nearest public "recreation area".

No civilian pistol that I know of comes with those giant magazines because they are awkward, but they are available for several popular handgun series such as Glock and Beretta. In both cases the manufacturer offers a fully automatic version of their pistol (the Glock 18 IIRC and the Beretta 93F) which are only sold to law enforcement and AFAIK are generally used by protective services such as diplomatic bodyguards, etc. They are impractical and unwieldy. But for that purpose, a very large magazine makes some sense as the gun will go through ammunition very rapidly.

So with it's regular magazine of 17 and, is this right, semi-automatic ability, it's used for what? Can plunking?

I understand the whole "bad guys do bad things" but when you're making weapons that are optimal for shooting people in the head, maybe it's time to ask if we're facilitating these guys.

lefty

Originally Posted by Stazy

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Security measures that mirror procedures in the middle east east sounds like regression rather that progession to me. The idea of being in a classroom with armed students is not very appealing. What's more, I don't think it's a good idea for civillians to be ever carrying guns in public.

I prefer your earlier suggestion much more (having an armed personal on standbye).

I'm just saying - as you may have noticed, I have been very strongly against private ownership of firearms, because I think that in most cases a civillian cna't influence the sitution. this is an example of the rare situation taht could have been influenced by an armed civillian. I still don't like the idea.

as to the applicability of the middle east situation - keep in mind that this is about the 5th time soemthing like this has happened in the US. there have probrably been 200 attempts at someting like this in israel maybe more. in most cases, the assailetn was killed before he could get his mojo working.