RLBL-made in China?

Originally Posted by narcissism

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Yeah, I read all the posts. I guess it just bothers me the extent to which companies go to maximize profits, but I realize this is capitalism and the current state of our global, industrial economy.

It's not capitalism. Utilizing slave labour and bribing government officials to get things done has nothing to do with capitalism.

Originally Posted by Viktri

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Doesn't sound like anyone in this thread has visited a Chinese factory. Info seems to be coming from media reports/hearsay.
Hell, doesn't even sound like anyone's worked in a sweatshop factory before to know what makes the work ******.

No one even touched upon any of the stuff that really sucks for factory workers yet.

well two people talked about being in the industry, but whatever. knowledge and intelligence is still severely lacking in this thread

Originally Posted by indesertum

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well two people talked about being in the industry, but whatever. knowledge and intelligence is still severely lacking in this thread
"Deluxe: How Luxury Lost its Luster" speaks to the clothing industry in China. I think I recall the author visiting several factories in industrial cities, but its not that in depth.

Just a few comments:

Originally Posted by indesertum

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a person cannot be this dense. we're not talking about an american company outsourcing clothing to any other country, we're talking about specific situations in china that are different from any developed nation like italy. while shantytowns and illegal immigrants might run amuck in the clothing industry in italy, at least italy has vital human rights laws. i would imagine standard of living is at least higher compared to china among such people. i would also imagine that the more media exposure there is of such situations things will change, whereas china actively suppresses any such sort of media exposure and will not change

You've really taken my statement out of context here. First of all, I was responding specifically to the comment:

Originally Posted by cold war painter

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1. If production of an item in their home country has been offshored to China, they may resent the loss of jobs and/or feel that the traditional way of making that item can't be maintained..

Never throughout the thread have I said that I advocated the Chinese government's labour policies. One of my points has been that it is really the responsibility of the corporations outsourcing their manufacturing to China, Italy, or wherever to ensure that their workers are being fairly treated. My opinion is that the blame for the mistreatment of garment workers - whether it is in Italy or LA or China - should fall primarily at the feet of the employers.

It's all fine and good to have vital human rights laws on the books, but if they're not being enforced then what's the point? Presumably the US has vital human rights laws; yet migrant agricultural workers and garment workers in California still suffer at the hands of their employers. For the person working in an LA sweatshop, or getting sprayed by carcinogenic pesticides in an ag field in California, does it really matter if the country they're working in has laws on the books? Their rights are still being infringed upon, and it's ultimately up to their employers to make sure that this doesn't happen.

Originally Posted by indesertum

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right because variance in cultural norms is the reason for 10 hour work days and not retrograde labor laws. are you seriously implying that asians actually enjoy 70, 80, 90 hour workweeks because they're asian? goddamn major

i'm absolutely astounded at teh stupidity of this statement.

fwiw korea recently barely abolished the six day workweek despite stiff opposition from corporations. the workers must have so disappointed

You're just putting words into my mouth here. I did not in anyway assert that working longer hours was a racial characteristic; rather, I said that societal or cultural norms varied. It is up to those societies to define for themselves what they consider reasonable working hours.

Originally Posted by indesertum

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well two people talked about being in the industry, but whatever. knowledge and intelligence is still severely lacking in this thread
I read one person say his father ran a garment factory which means nothing unless you work there yourself and understand what is going on. No mention of lack of Appreciation (this is huge) or hostility between ethnic groups at all ... there's a reasons the greatest concentration of security is within the cafeteria (even more than the perimeter) and that these armed individuals aren't sitting down.

...

Originally Posted by academe

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Never throughout the thread have I said that I advocated the Chinese government's labour policies. One of my points has been that it is really the responsibility of the corporations outsourcing their manufacturing to China, Italy, or wherever to ensure that their workers are being fairly treated. My opinion is that the blame for the mistreatment of garment workers - whether it is in Italy or LA or China - should fall primarily at the feet of the employers.

this was not at all the point you were making in the quote i quoted even in context. you were saying if people are angry that traditional methods and jobs were being lost by outsourcing to china, why arent they getting mad at outsourcing to italy.

your above statement has absolutely nothing to do with that objection.

It's all fine and good to have vital human rights laws on the books, but if they're not being enforced then what's the point? Presumably the US has vital human rights laws; yet migrant agricultural workers and garment workers in California still suffer at the hands of their employers. For the person working in an LA sweatshop, or getting sprayed by carcinogenic pesticides in an ag field in California, does it really matter if the country they're working in has laws on the books? Their rights are still being infringed upon, and it's ultimately up to their employers to make sure that this doesn't happen.

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like i said infrastructure of enforcement of said vital laws are done more easily in a nation like italy or the US compared to a nation like china. whether that's the media or a more legal/civic approach, doesn't matter. at least in the us you and i and anybody else is allowed to talk, report, demonstrate in opposition against workers getting sprayed by carcinogenic pesticides. at least we can sue the government on behalf of the workers and try and get laws changed.

You're just putting words into my mouth here. I did not in anyway assert that working longer hours was a racial characteristic; rather, I said that societal or cultural norms varied. It is up to those societies to define for themselves what they consider reasonable working hours.

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did i ever even mention the word race? i even said cultural variance. and i cannot believe you are still sticking to this utterly moronic statement. cultural variance is not the reason why people in china, south korea, vietnam, etc work 70-100 hours a week. south korean workers have the highest hours worked out of any developed nation. do you seriously think any of this is because of cultural or societal norms?

are you seriously saying that by culture, by society it is more normal for asian to work 80 to 100 hour weeks? you think asian workers want to work 80 to 100 hour weeks?

Originally Posted by indesertum

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like i said infrastructure of enforcement of said vital laws are done more easily in a nation like italy or the US compared to a nation like china. whether that's the media or a more legal/civic approach, doesn't matter. at least in the us you and i and anybody else is allowed to talk, report, demonstrate in opposition against workers getting sprayed by carcinogenic pesticides. at least we can sue the government on behalf of the workers and try and get laws changed.
So corporate employers have no responsibility in the matter? In our day to day lives, we're most "within the power" of our employers. They define the conditions of our work environment. Sure, the government may control the legal system, etc., but on a day to day level, we're not often interacting directly with the government or the legal system. To me, it stands to reason that it's those employers that should ultimately be held responsible for poor working conditions. My point is that we need to hold those companies to account. Lobbying for governmental change is all well and good, but if you don't like what a company is doing, or how they've made something, then don't buy their products.

Originally Posted by indesertum

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did i ever even mention the word race? i even said cultural variance.
You said (to quote):

Originally Posted by indesertum

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are you seriously implying that asians actually enjoy 70, 80, 90 hour workweeks because they're asian?
That certainly looks like you were saying "race" to me, even if you didn't use the word explicitly. Are you too stupid to read the implication (look that word up in the dictionary) in your sentence?

Originally Posted by indesertum

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and i cannot believe you are still sticking to this utterly moronic statement. cultural variance is not the reason why people in china, south korea, vietnam, etc work 70-100 hours a week. south korean workers have the highest hours worked out of any developed nation. do you seriously think any of this is because of cultural or societal norms? are you seriously saying that by culture, by society it is more normal for asian to work 80 to 100 hour weeks? you think asian workers want to work 80 to 100 hour weeks?
How is it a moronic statement? Rather than throwing insults, explain it to me. All I said was that societies should decide for themselves what reasonable work hours are. If those societies decide that they should not work more than 40 or 50 hours a week, then so be it. What you seem to be advocating (and tell me if I'm wrong) is some kind of heavy-handed interventionist policy...Smacks of neo-colonialism to me. Shouldn't countries have a right to decide for themselves what's right, including things like labour policy and working hours?

Originally Posted by academe

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First of all, I was responding specifically to the comment:

That was my comment and I had a specific example in mind when making it: Blundstone made an iconic and recognisably Australian workboot in Tasmania from 1870 until 2000 or so when they offshored production to China. To me, that then destroys its cultural cachet and the boot is not the same item - and it wouldn't be if they'd offshored to Italy or Iceland or wherever.

It would be like moving production of Laphroaig from Islay to Asia - it might still be very good whiskey (and some Asian whiskeys are I believe) but it wouldn't be Laphroaig.

I think this situation would apply to few products, specifically those that have particular cultural/patriotic importance.

Originally Posted by academe

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It's all fine and good to have vital human rights laws on the books, but if they're not being enforced then what's the point?

If the laws are present, that's the first step. They have to exist before they can be enforced. And where the laws exist I think I can, unless I know differently, assume that they are being enforced. For example I think it's a pretty safe bet that my Aldens weren't made by someone working at gunpoint for less than minimum wage, and I will continue to assume that unless I discover evidence to the contrary.

Having said all that; I take your point that the company must bear most of the responsibility for the conditions its products are made under. The Blundstone example caused me to stop buying Blundstones but hasn't left me with any ill-will towards Chinese (or Icelandic) workers.

im going to stop posting as this is honestly frustrating

good luck and good day to you

Originally Posted by harvey_birdman

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It matters for the following reasons:

1. Quality control is often not the same.
2. Third world factories often employ child or slave labour.
3. Environmental controls are often nonexistent.
4. There are virtually no consumer protections on content of materials or truth in labeling. Just because that shirt made in Thailand reads "100% cotton" doesn't mean it's 100% cotton.
5. Many times the purchase of products from these nations continues to empower the tyrannical governments leading to further oppression on local people and international strife.

I'm with you here. One other, less thoughtful response, is my gut feeling when looking at clothes made in China, is that 9/10 they don't look good.

Originally Posted by Raralith

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And there certainly has been a huge influx of wealth in China, absolutely huge, but it's all going to the top. I know in America we talk about the "trickle down effect" where spending from the rich eventually help the poor, but that really isn't the in China, case in my opinion.
Maybe.

I have seen inside a few Chinese factories, ranging in size from 30 employees to 3000. I can honestly say that I did not see children working, nor would I have expected to, these were mainly high tech plants with machinery that a child would definitely not had the capacity to operate. China makes good product at a good price, though how competitive it will be in the future is debatable, given current trends. I distinctly smell racism at work in this thread.

Originally Posted by indesertum

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are you seriously saying that by culture, by society it is more normal for asian to work 80 to 100 hour weeks? you think asian workers want to work 80 to 100 hour weeks?
It's time to stop posting, you clearly really don't know what you're talking about.

Originally Posted by Annadale

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... I can honestly say that I did not see children working, nor would I have expected to,...

http://thenextweb.com/apple/2010/02/...manufacturing/
http://www.china-labour.org.hk/en/node/15889
http://homeport.tcs.tulane.edu/~roux...99/china2.html

I distinctly smell racism at work in this thread

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So because I don't like the idea of Chinese children being forced to work in windowless factories I must have racist thoughts toward Chinese people? Seriously?