Veal

Originally Posted by KitAkira

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God commanded us to eat meat and not to eat (certain) insects or shrimp (actually... shrimp should be killed and left to rot as far as He is concerned). It's debatable whether He wants us to eat whales and dolphins or just kill them.

Suddenly religion becomes so convenient! As someone with an Orthodox Jewish sister, and through her learning a lot about Judaism and the Bible, nevermind being raised Jewish, I can say that being vegan is in accordance with the Torah.

Originally Posted by KitAkira

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Perhaps the bitchiness associated with vegetarians/vegans is due to their increased estrogen...

"Don't hate, debate." Invoking ad hominems only makes it sounds like you're out of real arguments. Remember, I <3 u no matter our difference of opinions.

Originally Posted by coonky

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A vegetarian/vegan has to find a protein source other than meat (or milk or eggs for vegans). Soybeans are one such common alternate source. Soybeans contain a lot of plant steroids, which some have suggested to cause an increase in human's estrogen production. However, from what little I know, the research behind this is shaky at best. I'm not worried.

I meant that vegans don't necessarily have to eat any foods that may have phytoestrogenic properties. Vegetarians definitely can avoid phytoestrogen containing foods (at high levels, difficult for anyone to avoid it altogether). My point is, one can't assume vegs will have higher estrogen levels.

I find it interesting that these poor unloved vegans who need artificial substitute nutrition to replace the natural foods on which we live, and are probably sick and pallid are so offended by calfs fed on substitute nutrition so that they stay pallid.

Originally Posted by iammatt

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I find it interesting that these poor unloved vegans who need artificial substitute nutrition to replace the natural foods on which we live, and are probably sick and pallid are so offended by calfs fed on substitute nutrition so that they stay pallid.

Another false assumption

Originally Posted by Nosu3

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Another false assumption
Honestly dude, I probably eat as many vegetables as anybody I know, and I'm very, very good about choosing where I get my meat and fish. Still, I would rather die than be vegan. No hyperbole, death before veganism.

Originally Posted by Nosu3

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I find it interesting that veal has dropped in production by 85%. I guess it's due to it being a calf, but why does the public find the calf to be more "innocent" than the cow?

The number of calves entering the special-fed veal
industry has declined approximately 33 percent in the past
10 years, from about 1.2 million in 1986 to 800,000 in 1993.
However, average slaughter weight has increased, which
means that total production actually has decreased only
slightly over the past seven years. The decrease in total veal
production, including bob veal and special-fed veal, has
been mainly caused by the decreasing number of dairy
cows. In addition, the increased use of dairy bull calves for
dairy-beef production also has increased the overall demand
for these calves.

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http://agalternatives.aers.psu.edu/P...tions/veal.pdf


The good news is you can stop guessing.

Originally Posted by Fuuma

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You do understand that chicken do stick to one another anyway? Have you ever seen a live chicken? Free range chicken AFAIK means that they aren't immobilized with tubes in their beaks and other really hardcore industrial techniques...

My intuition tells me that "free-range" simply means they don't live in individual cages, which is consistent with what I've read. I may be wrong. I don't understand how "free-range" would include not having a tube over its beak. After all, it can still walk around with said tube.

When it comes down to it, I just think that in this society, raising an animal to kill it is wrong in and of itself.

Originally Posted by iammatt

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Honestly dude, I probably eat as many vegetables as anybody I know, and I'm very, very good about choosing where I get my meat and fish. Still, I would rather die than be vegan. No hyperbole, death before veganism.

One thing I must say against vegans is that almost every single one that I've met is utterly clueless about food. All they can tell you are the reasons why meat is bad.

If you look at the food they eat, it demonstrates a clear lack of knowledge and appreciation for food. I too, would rather die before being a vegan, but at least I could make it tolerable.

Vegetarians, and their Hezbollah-like splinter faction, the vegans, are a persistent irritant to any chef worth a damn. To me, life without veal stock, pork fat, sausage, organ meat, demi-glace, or even stinky cheese is a life not worth living. Vegetarians are the enemy of everything good and decent in the human spirit, and an affront to all I stand for, the pure enjoyment of food. The body, these waterheads imagine, is a temple that should not be polluted by animal protein. It's healthier, they insist, though every vegetarian waiter I've worked with is brought down by any rumor of a cold. Oh, I'll accommodate them, I'll rummage around for something to feed them, for a 'vegetarian plate', if called on to do so. Fourteen dollars for a few slices of grilled eggplant and zucchini suits my food cost fine.

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just sayin.

Originally Posted by coonky

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My intuition tells me that "free-range" simply means they don't live in individual cages, which is consistent with what I've read. I may be wrong. I don't understand how "free-range" would include not having a tube over its beak. After all, it can still walk around with said tube. When it comes down to it, I just think that in this society, raising an animal to kill it is wrong in and of itself.
Because to have a proper tube feeding chain you need to immobilize the chickens, the whole point if free range is to raise them in an environment that is somewhat "natural" to chicken and de-industrialize the process. Stop trusting your intuition it simply is not an adequate substitute for (in)direct observation. As to your other point I simply don't care much about animal rights, haven't thought much about it and have never read a philosopher I respect discuss it so I guess I have no firm opinion on it, it is one of the myriad of subjects I just take as is, as we are all bound to considering the range of activities and modes of thinking ethics can be applied to.

Originally Posted by coonky

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My intuition tells me that "free-range" simply means they don't live in individual cages, which is consistent with what I've read. I may be wrong. I don't understand how "free-range" would include not having a tube over its beak. After all, it can still walk around with said tube.

When it comes down to it, I just think that in this society, raising an animal to kill it is wrong in and of itself.

Generally it means that they can run around in a fairly large enclosed area.

A lot of good veal these days is also pasture raised, not shut away. There's been some debate about what yields a better flavor, but I've seen a number of veal farmers who just let them run around in the fields all day. Happier calfs, good meat. Gordon Ramsay did that with his calves.

I have a very important announcement for the Animal Rights Movement. Ohio has passed a new legislation (shortly following the Conklin Farm brutality investigation, oddly enough).

The agreement includes recommendations from all of the parties for the Ohio Livestock Care Standards Care Board, the Legislature, and the Governor to adopt the following provisions:

* A ban on veal crates by 2017, which is the same timing as the ballot measure.
* A ban on new gestation crates in the state after Dec. 31, 2010. Existing facilities are grandfathered, but must cease use of these crates within 15 years.
* A moratorium on permits for new battery cage confinement facilities for laying hens.
* A ban on strangulation of farm animals and mandatory humane euthanasia methods for sick or injured animals.
* A ban on the transport of downer cows for slaughter.
* Enactment of legislation establishing felony-level penalties for cockfighters.
* Enactment of legislation cracking down on puppy mills.
* Enactment of a ban on the acquisition of dangerous exotic animals as pets, such as primates, bears, lions, tigers, large constricting and venomous snakes, crocodiles and alligators.

Originally Posted by SField

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Generally it means that they can run around in a fairly large enclosed area.

A lot of good veal these days is also pasture raised, not shut away. There's been some debate about what yields a better flavor, but I've seen a number of veal farmers who just let them run around in the fields all day. Happier calfs, good meat. Gordon Ramsay did that with his calves.
Don't you think it is sad that we can't get those awesome suffocated Rouen ducks in the US? Those are awesome.

Originally Posted by SField

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Generally it means that they can run around in a fairly large enclosed area.

A lot of good veal these days is also pasture raised, not shut away. There's been some debate about what yields a better flavor, but I've seen a number of veal farmers who just let them run around in the fields all day. Happier calfs, good meat. Gordon Ramsay did that with his calves.

They hardly run around anyway, basically stick to one another in some dark corner. Chickens aren't very adventurous...

I'm def not mr farming but I was curious about chicken/free range and all those "free chickens or death!!" arguments.

I support the Ohio thing. Anything that is good news for the animals I eat, the better.

If only this got the veggies to shut the **** up about cruelty practices, but I doubt they ever will.