Putting Off The Married Life

Originally Posted by edmorel

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(...) What I am positing is that a large number of this 50% divorce rate is probably the kind of marriage where if you knew the people, you would say "what the phuck are they doing"?

I agree with this. Some marriages you look at and say...why did you people do this???

Originally Posted by edmorel

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The divorce rate, a number which is regularly thrown about, is a number that no one has really done a "deep dive" into. How many of these marriages are "at risk" marriages that are pretty much over before they begin? I am talking everything from shotgun weddings to 17-18 year olds to vegas ***** and giggles weddings to fourth/fifth marriages etc etc etc.? I'd like to see the figures on what I would call "real" marriages, people first married from 25-35, with no prior marriages, pre marriage relationships of at least 1 year, etc.

I don't know that I've seen deep dive divorce stats either. Of the nine marriages of mid twenties that I can claim special insight into where I was in the wedding party or best man as a result of non-familial ties, and fit your criteria, the following were results:

1. first time for both - still happily married
2. first time for both - Still married with normal strains
3. first time for both - Still married
4. first time for both - divorced
5. first time for both - divorced
6. first time for both - divorced
7. first time for both - still married, but only 3 years in
8. second time for both - divorced
9. first time for both - divorced

a tenth marriage, also fitting your criteria where my gf stood up in the wedding, is less than a year old with the wife cheating on the husband and planning the divorce.

Only two of these marriages could be described as a WTF? wedding or were you thought they went in too fast. All partners were college grads or went on to complete college. 4 of the 5 divorces were initiated by the wives.

I think there is an incredible pressure, especially for women, to get married and "assume adult life," as a friend of mine puts it and find "security." I was out last night talking with friends about a woman we know who was "surprised" into marriage--dude asked her in front of a room full of his family. He's nice enough, but definitely not her speed, but he provides a "stabilizing" effect for her. Under different circumstances, she'd be running things in NYC, Chicago, etc, but would be "unsettled" according to her family. So she married a nice guy, will be a (very) attractive wife who is bored to tears in a few years. I didn't get married until I was 36 and don't regret it at all. I saw the writing on the wall early on and knew that all that goes into being married, I wasn't interested in, so I got out of several long-term relationships. Not always easy or pleasant; I kept dating and pissing off women, because they were getting pressure to be married. But once my wife and I started dating and I decided that I wanted to be married to my wife, with all of the pitfalls, I did the deed. And it was an easy choice to make for me at that point in my life. Get married because you want to, when you know you can deal with it--the fights, the compromise, being friends as much as passionate lovers, not just the honeymoon and Hallmark bullshit. Not many of us make the sort of money to be sweating a pre-nup--Sean Combs ain't a regular contributor here. Most women I know work and earn a good living, so no gold diggers either. Besides, under 30 is probably too young for most guys I know.

Originally Posted by countdemoney

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4 of the 5 divorces were initiated by the wives.

I think this is huge also. Joe Schmo can't compare to Joe Six Pack on TV. Also, a reasonable husband can't keep up with the illusions of grandeur perpetuated by her friends, the Jones' (see Housing Crisis). The entitlement that women feel these days is pretty unreal.

Originally Posted by tiecollector

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I think this is huge also. Joe Schmo can't compare to Joe Six Pack on TV. Also, a reasonable husband can't keep up with the illusions of grandeur perpetuated by her friends, the Jones' (see Housing Crisis). The entitlement that women feel these days is pretty unreal.

Women on TV/Bilboards/Magazines/Appreciation tend to be relatively attractive too... That's like saying women are expected to be Appreciation stars because men look at Playboy. Women have boobs that are effected by gravity, pores, bad hair days, and have to do their own makeup- how the hell are they supposed to keep up with every girl that we guys are busy ogling at?

I read some stats at some stage that said that the divorce rate hovers between 40-50% in the States. The majority are initiated by women, and upon divorce the average man stands to lose 70% of his net worth. That's the house, the car, and the kids.

Originally Posted by edmorel

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by the way, I just want to make sure that I go down as a "do whatever the hell you are comfortable with in terms of marriage or just living together, with or without a prenup" poaster in this thread. Not sure why I care to say that, but I just did.
Just to throw in my two cents, that's what my gf and I decided also. She's a feminist and I'm a cynic, so we both think traditional marriage is pointless, and has religious ties that neither of us believe in. A party with our friends and family, some cool looking rings/watches/whatever to commemorate the day, and that's it. We've both said we'll be happy living together, until one of us isn't happy anymore. Then it ends. We don't need a piece of paper to show to anyone, our continuing to live together will be enough evidence for us. And the people who SHOULD break up, but simply stay together due to the piece of paper, I feel sorry for. Neither of us want kids at the moment, that might complicate things, but we'll cross that bridge...

Originally Posted by longskate88

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Just to throw in my two cents, that's what my gf and I decided also. She's a feminist and I'm a cynic, so we both think traditional marriage is pointless, and has religious ties that neither of us believe in. A party with our friends and family, some cool looking rings/watches/whatever to commemorate the day, and that's it. We've both said we'll be happy living together, until one of us isn't happy anymore. Then it ends. We don't need a piece of paper to show to anyone, our continuing to live together will be enough evidence for us. And the people who SHOULD break up, but simply stay together due to the piece of paper, I feel sorry for. Neither of us want kids at the moment, that might complicate things, but we'll cross that bridge...
I wish I could take that kind of a viewpoint, but yeah.. there's really some fear about being left "high and dry"... mostly because women have that "expiration date". After a certain age, I think I could be pretty happy (nay, PREFER) in a 'common-law' marriage without any official hoopla (both my divorced parents are in such relationships)... but until I'm at that age (this age is probably 40+), I'd feel ill at ease wasting my child-birthing years with a guy who couldn't commit enough to have a kid with me--and I'm not even one all gung ho about having kids, but the thought is definitely still floating around in the back of my mind. I know you said you and your gf might change minds if you decide to have a kid, but is she the type that wants kids? The whole children thing really throws a wrench in my liberal, feminist agenda. I really can't raise a kid alone... well, not a well-adjusted kid, I'm sure. heh. QUESTION TO THE MEN WHO INTEND ON MARRYING LATE: At what age do you plan on getting married and how old do you suspect your future wife will be?

Originally Posted by The Snob

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I wish I could take that kind of a viewpoint, but yeah.. there's really some fear about being left "high and dry"... mostly because women have that "expiration date". After a certain age, I think I could be pretty happy (nay, PREFER) in a 'common-law' marriage without any official hoopla (both my divorced parents are in such relationships)... but until I'm at that age (this age is probably 40+), I'd feel ill at ease wasting my child-birthing years with a guy who couldn't commit enough to have a kid with me--and I'm not even one all gung ho about having kids, but the thought is definitely still floating around in the back of my mind. I know you said you and your gf might change minds if you decide to have a kid, but is she the type that wants kids? The whole children thing really throws a wrench in my liberal, feminist agenda. I really can't raise a kid alone... well, not a well-adjusted kid, I'm sure. heh. QUESTION TO THE MEN WHO INTEND ON MARRYING LATE: At what age do you plan on getting married and how old do you suspect your future wife will be?
She talks pretty distastefully of them at this age (I'm 22, she's 23). We said if one of us really wants kids and the other one doesn't, then we break up. No fair to the kid to have one parent who won't be that interested. Frankly, the world has enough people that it won't miss one or two more, she is more into traveling then sitting at home (or so she says). I feel the same way, too much to see and do to be tied down. Maybe it's my selfishness of youth, but frankly I see no positive in having kids. The whole biological clock thing is sad, from a guy's point of view we're basically fertile til we're dead. If she's serious about not having kids, then it doesn't matter though. There's always adoption I do have a fear that the whole culture that she rebels against as a feminist will eventually get to her, and she'll become unsatisfied with herself as a woman if she doesn't have a child. Do you feel that way about yourself? You don't sound like you actually want kids, but that it's the 'normal' thing to do. So far, we've come to enjoy each other due to our open-mindedness and lack of social and gender role conformity (nothing bizarre BTW ), I hope our common sense doesn't fail us in something as important as children.

Originally Posted by longskate88

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She talks pretty distastefully of them at this age (I'm 22, she's 23). We said if one of us really wants kids and the other one doesn't, then we break up. No fair to the kid to have one parent who won't be that interested. Frankly, the world has enough people that it won't miss one or two more, she is more into traveling then sitting at home (or so she says). I feel the same way, too much to see and do to be tied down. Maybe it's my selfishness of youth, but frankly I see no positive in having kids.
Oh I felt that way.. as recently as one year ago. And then I turned 25 and started freaking. the. ****. out. (slight exaggeration). Oh, how I used to mock the women who were in such a rush to get married with their biological clocks ticking. now, while I'm still in no rush, I can definitely feel that tick. It's sad. I now have the view that I can't be bothered with dating aimlessly--gotta take a more proactive stance of, "could I marry this guy?". This puts a damper on things.

Originally Posted by longskate

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If she's serious about not having kids, then it doesn't matter though. There's always adoption

Yeah, adoption just isn't the same. I want my own demon spawn, ya know? heehee. Recently one of my male friends knocked up a chick--a very level-headed, intelligent chick. Being that she's 28, she decided to have the kid out of wedlock and he agreed to be a supportive parent even though she moved back to Portland. I mean, he's a mature guy at his age so I can see this non-marriage arrangement working out well for them. Anyway, I am TOTALLY JEALOUS OF HIM--now he has the whole kid thing ticked off, didn't even need to commit, and is free to spend the rest of his life being a bachelor... and he's not even raising the kid! I mean, financially and the occasional visit, sure, but god, I can be a stay-away parent too if that's all it took.

Originally Posted by The Snob

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Oh I felt that way.. as recently as one year ago. And then I turned 25 and started freaking. the. ****. out. (slight exaggeration). Oh, how I used to mock the women who were in such a rush to get married with their biological clocks ticking--now, while I'm still in no rush, I can definitely feel that tick. It's sad.

I now have the view that I can't be bothered with dating aimlessly--gotta take a more proactive stance of, "could I marry this guy?". This puts a damper on things. Yeah, adoption just isn't the same. I want my own demon spawn, ya know? heehee. Recently one of my male friends knocked up a chick--a very level-headed, intelligent chick. Being that she's 28, she decided to have the kid out of wedlock and he agreed to be a supportive parent even though she moved back to Portland. I mean, he's a mature guy at his age so I can see this non-marriage arrangement working out well for them. Anyway, I am TOTALLY JEALOUS OF HIM--now he has the whole kid thing ticked off, didn't even need to commit, and is free to spend the rest of his life being a bachelor... and he's not even raising the kid! I mean, financially and the occasional visit, sure, but god, I can be a stay-away parent too if that's all it took.
Thanks for sharing. Can I ask why you're jealous of him? Wouldn't his life be the same if he had never had the kid in the first place? Sounds like he simply had the kid to check off that box on the 'To-Do list of things-normal-people-do'

Originally Posted by longskate88

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Thanks for sharing. Can I ask why you're jealous of him? Wouldn't his life be the same if he had never had the kid in the first place? Sounds like he simply had the kid to check off that box on the 'To-Do list of things-normal-people-do'

Because... having a kid is kind of like one of those things. I think this comes from the fact that I am an only child and will never have nieces and nephews.

Also, I recall in college one of my philosophy professors waxing about how wonderful being a parent is. He was a lifelong bachelor until... his late 50s, early 60s (not sure exactly how old he was; he was old and a freaking fox ha)... so anyway; he was a lifelong bachelor until recently I guess. He married some young broad late in life (typical) and then unexpectedly had a daughter. You should've heard the way he talked. He literally said it was life changing. Funnily enough, this was in an incredibly pretentiously titled philosophy class called "The Meaning of Life" hah. So there he is, talking about how he never imagined how fulfilling being a parent was going to be and he had planned on being childless and blah blah blah.

And while obviously this isn't the case for everyone, I can definitely see the awe in having a kid and it's something I know I'd regret passing up later in life. Also, one of my old bosses was a 50year old single woman, and **** I do not want to be her. Oh, she's very successful professionally, but the fact that she clung to my youth and wanted to live vicariously through me was disturbing to say the least. Lastly, as a living species, procreation is kind of the point of life even if that's a pretty weak point.

Originally Posted by longskate88

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I do have a fear that the whole culture that she rebels against as a feminist will eventually get to her, and she'll become unsatisfied with herself as a woman if she doesn't have a child. Do you feel that way about yourself? You don't sound like you actually want kids, but that it's the 'normal' thing to do.
Admittedly, I've never been fond of babies. Babies are assholes and they aren't even cute. I'll take a puppy any day. BUT, I have always like precocious kids and want one (or two) of my own. I figure the baby part only lasts a couple of years... and then it's a lifetime of rewards (hopefully, they don't turn out too bad). Also, I have a very maternal instinct. I found this to be true in past relationships and pets.

I hope our common sense doesn't fail us in something as important as children.

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You two are both young. As I said, I even felt all 'blah, family, whatever' until just last year--not even. The change was basically over night in January when I turned 25. hehe. 25 used to be one of those impossibly old ages to me even when I was 22.

Originally Posted by The Snob

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Because... having a kid is kind of like one of those things. I think this comes from the fact that I am an only child and will never have nieces and nephews.

Also, I recall in college one of my philosophy professors waxing about how wonderful being a parent is. He was a lifelong bachelor until... his late 50s, early 60s (not sure exactly how old he was; he was old and a freaking fox ha)... so anyway; he was a lifelong bachelor until recently I guess. He married some young broad late in life (typical) and then unexpectedly had a daughter. You should've heard the way he talked. He literally said it was life changing. Funnily enough, this was in an incredibly pretentiously titled philosophy class called "The Meaning of Life" hah. So there he is, talking about how he never imagined how fulfilling being a parent was going to be and he had planned on being childless and blah blah blah.

And while obviously this isn't the case for everyone, I can definitely see the awe in having a kid and it's something I know I'd regret passing up later in life. Also, one of my old bosses was a 50year old single woman, and **** I do not want to be her. Oh, she's very successful professionally, but the fact that she clung to my youth and wanted to live vicariously through me was disturbing to say the least. Lastly, as a living species, procreation is kind of the point of life even if that's a pretty weak point.

Do you think her clinging to youth was a symptom of not having kids, or simply getting old? I figure she's cling the same way to kids if she had them.

I disagree about procreation being the point of life. Do I know what the point of life is? No, but I hope it's something greater than reproducing, again that's my selfishness and idealism speaking.

Overall, I hope to do with my life what *I* want, not what is prescribed by our culture. Plus, I'd make a crappy parent

Originally Posted by The Snob

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You two are both young. As I said, I even felt all 'blah, family, whatever' until just last year--not even. The change was basically over night in January when I turned 25. hehe. 25 used to be one of those impossibly old ages to me even when I was 22.

We'll see, though most people say what you're saying. Maybe the transition from the freedom and shapelessness of time in college to the structured working world will change our outlook.

BTW, she loves babies, she used to nanny. As soon as they leave the cute, helpless puppy stage, she's ready to pass them along to someone else.