Shaq Retires

Originally Posted by FLMountainMan

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This myth has been addressed previously in the thread. And when Wilt and Kareem played each other, even though Wilt was on the wrong side of thirty and had completely changed his game, the matchup was even. Who did Kareem play against?
I will also observe that even though Russell played in the same era as Wilt, I never hear about how sub-par Russell's competition was. jpeirpont quotes a source listing Russell the second-best player of all time, with Wilt at number six and then questions Wilt's competition(!). Double standard? Edit: Not meaning to bust on jpeirpont in particular. Many so-called "experts" do this.

Russel is the most overrated player in the history of the league. He played in the same undersized league that Wilt played in but never shot 50%. This was with the narrower lane too. He was a 6'9" 215 defensive menace at a time when no one else focused on D. Bill Russell was a focused Dennis Rodman with a higher basketball IQ.

Originally Posted by FLMountainMan

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This myth has been addressed previously in the thread. And when Wilt and Kareem played each other, even though Wilt was on the wrong side of thirty and had completely changed his game, the matchup was even.

Who did Kareem play against?
I dont buy that it is a myth. Also I was speaking about during their respective best seasons or peak seasons. Wilt only played against Russell as far as great centers go and maybe a couple good centers. Kareem played against Chamberlin, Unseld, Cowens, Reed,Lanier and Elvin Hayes and that's just the hall of famers.

If going by overall career Kareem has six titles and been to the finals 11 times. Winning Finals MVP 14 years apart, that's just damn impressive.

Originally Posted by thinman

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I will also observe that even though Russell played in the same era as Wilt, I never hear about how sub-par Russell's competition was. jpeirpont quotes a source listing Russell the second-best player of all time, with Wilt at number six and then questions Wilt's competition(!). Double standard?

Edit: Not meaning to bust on jpeirpont in particular. Many so-called "experts" do this.
I dont think it is a double standard, no one said Chamberlin wasn't great, I said Russell was the only great player Wilt played against in his best years. The same would apply to Russell, but atleast Russell has 11 rings. I think Kareem is better than Russell also.

Originally Posted by jpeirpont

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I dont buy that it is a myth. Also I was speaking about during their respective best seasons or peak seasons. Wilt only played against Russell as far as great centers go and maybe a couple good centers. Kareem played against Chamberlin, Unseld, Cowens, Reed,Lanier and Elvin Hayes and that's just the hall of famers.

If going by overall career Kareem has six titles and been to the finals 11 times. Winning Finals MVP 14 years apart, that's just damn impressive.

You can't very well include Wilt in the list of great centers Kareem played against, and not include Kareem in Wilt's list.

Originally Posted by gladhands

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Russel is the most overrated player in the history of the league. He played in the same undersized league that Wilt played in but never shot 50%. This was with the narrower lane too. He was a 6'9" 215 defensive menace at a time when no one else focused on D. Bill Russell was a focused Dennis Rodman with a higher basketball IQ.

This I can agree with. Russell was a defensive, shot-blocking menace, however he is so highly rated because (a) he was probably the first to make playing defense popular and (b) he played on some great teams and won so many championships. By this standard, should Robert Horry also make the HOF? (He was master of the game-winning 3-pointer and played on multiple championship teams).

Disclaimer: I'm too young to have watched Russell play.

Originally Posted by dcg

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You can't very well include Wilt in the list of great centers Kareem played against, and not include Kareem in Wilt's list.

You didnt notice i said their peek seasons which due to age occurred at different times. Wilt best statistically more impressive years occurred before KAJ came into the league.

Russel was "great", historically important and a worthy, HOFer. There's even an outside chance he'd make it in the league now, but he wouldn't be a center, and he definitely wouldn't be dominant.

Originally Posted by jpeirpont

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You didnt notice i said their peek seasons which due to age occurred at different times. Wilt best statistically more impressive years occurred before KAJ came into the league.

Well, that would be a reason to include Kareem on Wilt's list, but not Wilt on Kareem's.

Originally Posted by dcg

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Well, that would be a reason to include Kareem on Wilt's list, but not Wilt on Kareem's.

How Kareem didnt play against Wilt in Wilt's peek years?

Originally Posted by jpeirpont

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How Kareem didnt play against Wilt in Wilt's peek years?

I'm not an expert on either of them; just responding to your comment that "Wilt best statistically more impressive years occurred before KAJ came into the league."

Originally Posted by jpeirpont

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Bill Simmons The Book of Basketball is pretty credible. He has Wilt at 6, behind 5. Bird 4. Magic 3. Kareem 2. Russell 1. Jordan

Simmons complains about Wilt a lot, it seems - once in a generation talent that never lived up to it, I think he claims that Wilt didn't have the work ethic to do it, etc. etc. etc. All of which seem like specious claims.

Simmons is fine when he writes about basketball as a fan, but his analysis is questionable as hell.

Originally Posted by gladhands

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Russel is the most overrated player in the history of the league. He played in the same undersized league that Wilt played in but never shot 50%. This was with the narrower lane too. He was a 6'9" 215 defensive menace at a time when no one else focused on D. Bill Russell was a focused Dennis Rodman with a higher basketball IQ.
Hard to say. He was, without a doubt, the greatest winner in basketball history. Nobody has his resume - nobody has half his resume (actually, Kareem has probably 2/3rds of it, but still not close). This is a guy who won 2 NCAA titles; an Olympic gold medal, and 11 NBA titles. He had such a high basketball IQ that he coached the team - while playing - to two NBA titles. He was 28-2 in elimination games (9-0 in the NCAA tournament, 2-0 in Olympic medal round, 17-2 with the Celtics) - in the NBA, his teams were 10-0 in Game 7's. And just to compare against Kareem (who is the closest, in terms of winning), Russell played 13 NBA seasons, and won 11 titles (lost in the Finals in 1958 and Conference Finals in 1967); Kareem played 20 seasons and won six titles. If you add in college, Russell won it all 13 out of 16 times (81%), while Kareem won 9 out of 23 (39%). Best player? That's where it gets tough. One could argue that he was a defensive menace because he recognized that it was the best path to winning. Maybe he was just smart enough to play defense first. But it's also tough to judge because some of his Celtics teams sent all five starters to the Hall of Fame. Was he that good, or just the leader of one of the greatest teams ever? I'm not sure we'll ever know - but the statistics of dominance are irrefutable.

Originally Posted by gladhands

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Russel was "great", historically important and a worthy, HOFer. There's even an outside chance he'd make it in the league now, but he wouldn't be a center, and he definitely wouldn't be dominant.
Seriously? So he'd be the next LaMarcus Aldridge? Give me a ******* break.

Originally Posted by Rambo

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Seriously? So he'd be the next LaMarcus Aldridge? Give me a ******* break.

Aldridge is settimg the bar high. Russell would have been a smarter Ben Wallace. The man had NO. OFFENSIVE. GAME.

Bill Russell averaged 15.1 points per game for his career, and never averaged 20 in any season. He was a career .440 shooter, never breaking 47% from the field at the CENTER position. It''s widely acknowledged that there was a dearth of athletic big men, and that Russell was the only guy from that era who played any defense, so who was stopping him from scoring? Not to mention the fact that he played with a much narrower three-second lane, meaning he basically just got to camp out five feet from the basket.

Originally Posted by tj100

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Best player? That's where it gets tough. One could argue that he was a defensive menace because he recognized that it was the best path to winning. Maybe he was just smart enough to play defense first. But it's also tough to judge because some of his Celtics teams sent all five starters to the Hall of Fame. Was he that good, or just the leader of one of the greatest teams ever? I'm not sure we'll ever know - but the statistics of dominance are irrefutable.

Largely overlooked