any public defenders here?

is that all a biglaw lawyer makes, 160K?

Originally Posted by IUtoSLU

Click to expand...

No offense, but the general view on public defenders is that they are the people who finished at the bottom of their class in law school. I only knew one girl in my class that worked for the public defender's office. She was a great person, pretty liberal and a mediocre student.

Offense taken. Top 5% of my law school class, public defender for 27 years and plenty of others like me. You need to get out of the library more.

Originally Posted by globetrotter

Click to expand...

is that all a biglaw lawyer makes, 160K?

160k starting, yeah.

From my limited knowledge, there is quite a difference between state/local PDs and federal PDs. The federal PDs are often better credentialed, to the extent that matters. Same situation with prosecutors.

Gosh, you're very young to give up on life and become a lawyer.

Just a few thoughts (I am in a criminal practice but not a PD). There are a lot of different forms the public defenders office can take. In Texas, most counties don't have a PD office, but only a roll call of attorneys willing and credentialled to take appointments. There are federal public defender's offices, and they are on the federal public pay scale (and as has been said before, generally have better credentials, depending on the area). In addition, many jurisdictions have offices dedicated to defending capital cases - I know there is one such office in New Orleans.

As far as the work goes, I know some that love it, some that hate it. It can be a beating. Many clients are scum. Many prosecutors are dicks. Many judges are generally dismissive. Juries are illiterate, prejudiced idiots. You will find yourself butting heads with your clients almost as often as with the State. They will file grievances against you and you will be the subject of IAC claims in federal district courts. Many people love operating in this world, others despise it. It's a matter of personality. You will have opportunities to discover if you would like it before you commit, but keep an open mind. There is no shame in discovering it isn't your thing.

And it's easy to say you'd be happy with 45K a year as a 20 year old. Once you are 30, cutting $600/m checks on your student loans, can't afford a new Civic, let alone buy a house, you start to see the attraction of a little financial stability. Especially when your law school classmates are doing pretty similar work (the substance of Big Firm practice and PI practice is often much more similar than folks on either side would like to admit) and banking 165K to start, not to mention signing bonuses, barbri fees, yearly raises, etc., and they have better career prospects because of the luster of the big firm resume (some prospects which you will probably want yourself, such as clerkships with federal judges, the ability to join a federal public defender's office or US attorney's office, etc.), which you won't even be able to sniff....

Here is my advice, and I was a bit like you before law school and knew nothing about the culture of the law (dad was a cab driver, no lawyers in the family) and thought I could only be a public defender or something similarly public-interest minded: do as well as possible on the LSAT. Get into as good of a law school as possible. Get as good grades as you can in law school. This way you will have as many options as possible, including great options in the PI world that are not obtainable to most Tulane grads. If this is a harsh and literal-minded message - welcome to the legal world. It is stupidly regimented about things like school rank and grades. I wish someone had told me this before law school.

thanks airportlobby! very informative response. i appreciate your advice.

my biggest thing is i don't want to do 15 hours of grunt work a day. i want to be a real lawyer. i want to be in court.

and while i'm very interested in criminal law, i'm keeping an open mind in regards to other areas of law. i am fascinated by torts, for example.

i suppose if my grades are good enough i'll be able to -- like you said -- have many options; subsequently, i may be able to latch onto a smallish firm that specializes in an area that interests me -- all the while making a good living.

Originally Posted by rjakapeanut

Click to expand...

. i want to be a real lawyer. i want to be in court.


To do that early in your career often requires giving up a lot.

The thing is, if you go to Yale, you can write your own ticket anywhere you want and not have to worry about student loans limiting you (very generous loan forgiveness policy). I have a friend from Yale who didn't like big firm lawyering, realized he didn't much like any lawyering, and now works as an investigator for the New Orleans PD office. He has perfect freedom as a law grad, which is the optimal result. If you go somewhere like Texas, you would have to be in the top 5% or so of your class to have so many options (and money could still be problematic).

If I was a little harsh, it's just to keep you (or others) from making the same mistakes I made - not maxing out my LSAT, not going to the best school I got into, thinking there was a truly fundamental difference between the big firms and public interest practice, not caring about my first year law school grades b/c "I didn't want to go big law...."

Simply put, there are a lot of mistakes you can make going into the law which will hamstring your career before it even begins, before you have a chance to really know better, unless you have lawyers in the family.

A lot of public defenders hate being public defenders, but a lot of firm attorneys hate being firm attorneys. A lot of lawyers hate being lawyers in general. It's not an easy gig. If you do criminal work of any sort, you'll probably be representing a lot of guilty people, and you'll probably make quite a few deals because of it. But that's how it goes, and the only way the system can work.

A lot of PDs end up becoming prosecutors. For some, it's because they grow to hate their clients. For others, it's because they decide they can make more of a difference by bringing a PD approach to prosecution and dealmaking. Other PDs find great satisfaction in what they do and wouldn't trade it for all the money a firm could offer. But your heart has to be in it. The workload can be enormous, and while that means a lot of courtroom experience, it can also mean that you don't get to spend much time playing Perry Mason. It becomes a matter of getting the best outcome with the time and resources available.

Now and then as a PD you'll come across a client who really needs your help, a decent person whose life rests in your hands, and if you find satisfaction in that, it can make for a fulfilling career. But I wouldn't take up public defense unless you really feel it's your calling. If you care about the law on a more abstract level, you might be happier doing something more lucrative and less emotionally taxing.

Some good advice in here. Someone should publish a book "The Collected Writings of Styleforum."

Originally Posted by airportlobby

Click to expand...

The thing is, if you go to Yale, you can write your own ticket anywhere you want and not have to worry about student loans limiting you (very generous loan forgiveness policy). I have a friend from Yale who didn't like big firm lawyering, realized he didn't much like any lawyering, and now works as an investigator for the New Orleans PD office. He has perfect freedom as a law grad, which is the optimal result. If you go somewhere like Texas, you would have to be in the top 5% or so of your class to have so many options (and money could still be problematic).

If I was a little harsh, it's just to keep you (or others) from making the same mistakes I made - not maxing out my LSAT, not going to the best school I got into, thinking there was a truly fundamental difference between the big firms and public interest practice, not caring about my first year law school grades b/c "I didn't want to go big law...."

Simply put, there are a lot of mistakes you can make going into the law which will hamstring your career before it even begins, before you have a chance to really know better, unless you have lawyers in the family.

hey, harsh is good. i don't look at it as being harsh -- just being realistic. that helps me. i appreciate that.

that's why i think that tulane would probably be my best option. it's not only the best school in louisiana (where i intend to stay and practice here in NOLA), but it's really the best school in the region. the next closest school that can compete with it is....probably university of alabama and/or university of texas at austin. i imagine UT grads stay in texas or go to big markets.

i figure that a tulane JD is really one of the better JDs any firm in louisiana can expect to see. i'm sure there'll be a couple of guys from t10 schools shuffling down to our biggest firms -- but overall, wouldn't my tulane JD (especially if i graduate near the top of the class) be almost ideal? for this market, that is.

I don't know a lot about public defenders or about the american legal system. I have a friend who was a DA (assistant DA, or what ever you call the guys on the line) and she did a huge amount of litigation from graduation until about 30-34. then she went into a few different in house lawyer positions for the past decade or so, where she gets a little litagation but not that much. she really enjoyed her time on the front line, it put her in a very good position to get other jobs later, and now that she is older and has a family she likes having money and the more flexible hours.

what I mean to say is - if you want to litigate, you can, you can get good marketable experience and you can then get a job that will allow you to live a little better. if you are good and you get a good education

Originally Posted by rjakapeanut

Click to expand...

but overall, wouldn't my tulane JD (especially if i graduate near the top of the class) be almost ideal? for this market, that is.

Not to be a drag, but that is a big and very important "if."

yeah that's always been my plan -- get some experience up front and vie for greener pastures as time goes on.

Originally Posted by magogian12345

Click to expand...

Not to be a drag, but that is a big and very important "if."
certainly. but isn't everything in this thread...kind of circumstantial? it's possible i'll flunk out of college and not even go to law school, right? for the purpose of my question, i guess i was asking "if someone went to tulane and did well..." etc. whether i can do that or not is a different question. one i will have to wait to answer.