Law school and the legal sphere (in North America)

[oman]

I have a bit of a dilemma so I figured hey, why not take it to the streets? You guys have always been helpful in the past — alright that's a slight exaggeration, but not as much as you'd think.

To summarize: I'm at the gates of law school. It's been a long road but I've finally sent out some applications (well, one) and received one acceptance.

The catch: I... AM... CANADIAN!!

Yes, it's true; I am a naturalized Canadian citizen. The University of Toronto's Faculty of Law has accepted me for intake this fall. This is a good outcome, because it's almost universally recognized as the best law school in Canada.

The thing is, there are better schools in America — but, of course, they're rather more expensive (by a factor of about 30%-60%, after taking CAD-USD rates and cost of living into account). Nonetheless, they do offer access to the largest legal market in the world. Furthermore, as a young and highly excitable person, I find Canada a bit ploddingly conservative at times — though I am very appreciative of the nation's unique outlook and would love to participate in its development in the coming decades.

On the other hand, if I move to the US, I would do so with minimal connections and Canadian citizenship. I'm guessing this would be a setback to finding employment, though hopefully not an insurmountable one...

In terms of likely US law schools, I would not get into Harvard or Stanford, and Yale is a very long shot. My LSAT score is in the upper half of the 99th percentile, so I would definitely get into a T-14; the thing is, I have not yet applied...

Would appreciate your advice on any of the following:

1. Is the Canadian legal market worth going into at this time, for a young man who wants to compete with the best in the world?
2. How hard is it for Canadian-trained lawyers to break into the NY legal market, assuming said Canadian-trained lawyers have passed the NY bar?
3. Should I hold out for US schools that are in the T14 but not Harvard/Stanford/Yale, at the risk of being a small fish in a much larger pond, or should I go to the best school in a smaller and rather more maple syrupy pond?

Thanks to anyone who responds! Also, if anyone's studying for the LSAT and wants some top-notch free advice, holla! It's been 2.5 years since I took the test but I've been coaching my girlfriend for months right now so everything's fresh in my head.

 

[Harold falcon]

What type of law were you thinking of getting into? The US legal market is over-saturated to the point of :foo:. Unless you've got a connection or you're willing to suck some cock you'll have a hard time finding a job.

 

[kasper007]

I am not a lawyer so keep that in mind. that being said, I know quite a few through my personal and professional networks (I work in Private Equity and previously IB) and given I'm Canadian I'm assuming your interested in corporate law.

Although there's been some merger activity recently, the Canadian law space is still very localized and many of the top firm don't compete outside of Canada. While the quality and talent is fairly similar, for associates / partners at top firms, you're looking at a roughly 50% pay cut working at a Canadian firms (ie. an Associate 1 would likely get 50% less at Tory's than at Skadden doing the exact same work, maybe with slightly better hours, but not a big difference). As a matter of fact, I know of a few PE firms that now have CDN firms do a significant portion of their legal work as they believe they get similar quality for 50% of the cost.

I know quite a few friend who did McGill law (and would differ to your opinion that UofT is #1 in Canada and ended up in Wall Street so it's definitely not impossible, but very very difficult. It should also be noted the many of them ended up at Canadian firms. That being said, the US law market has never been so saturated and despite enrollments being at the lowest since the 70s, schools are still cranking out way too many students so competition for jobs at top firms is beyond fierce. A few of my gf friends graduated in the last year or two (all went to T14 schools) and for those outside of H/S/Y, it seems only the top students (top 10 or even 5% of their class) managed to land big law. Given the cost of law school, a large proportion of T14 students will get a very poor return on their investments.

As to what you should do, I'm not sure how much work is needed for application beyond the LSAT, but assuming it is possible, why not apply to a few US schools and see how it goes. It think the value proposition of attending Columbia, Chicago or even Yale is quite different than going to Michigan or Duke and it does change the discussion (ie. I think there's a case to be made that you would benefit from attending the former, the latter not so much).

 

[oman]

Thanks for the replies, gents...

Although there's been some merger activity recently, the Canadian law space is still very localized and many of the top firm don't compete outside of Canada. While the quality and talent is fairly similar, for associates / partners at top firms, you're looking at a roughly 50% pay cut working at a Canadian firms (ie. an Associate 1 would likely get 50% less at Tory's than at Skadden doing the exact same work, maybe with slightly better hours, but not a big difference). As a matter of fact, I know of a few PE firms that now have CDN firms do a significant portion of their legal work as they believe they get similar quality for 50% of the cost.

Absolutely. The bolded part is exactly why I'd like to transition into the US market. At the same time...

Although there's been some merger activity recently, the Canadian law space is still very localized and many of the top firm don't compete outside of Canada. While the quality and talent is fairly similar, for associates / partners at top firms, you're looking at a roughly 50% pay cut working at a Canadian firms (ie. an Associate 1 would likely get 50% less at Tory's than at Skadden doing the exact same work, maybe with slightly better hours, but not a big difference). As a matter of fact, I know of a few PE firms that now have CDN firms do a significant portion of their legal work as they believe they get similar quality for 50% of the cost.

the US law market has never been so saturated and despite enrollments being at the lowest since the 70s, schools are still cranking out way too many students so competition for jobs at top firms is beyond fierce. A few of my gf friends graduated in the last year or two (all went to T14 schools) and for those outside of H/S/Y, it seems only the top students (top 10 or even 5% of their class) managed to land big law. Given the cost of law school, a large proportion of T14 students will get a very poor return on their investments.

What type of law were you thinking of getting into? The US legal market is over-saturated to the point of :foo:. Unless you've got a connection or you're willing to suck some cock you'll have a hard time finding a job.

...this stuff scares me. I have no connections in the US and am unwilling to suck cock... besides which, if lower-half T14 grads are coming out of school holding nothing but their dicks, then jumping ship to the US sounds like a bad idea (given the additional cost burden at US law schools).

Also, it sounds like things will be tough no matter where I graduate. At this point I can think of no way to mitigate this risk other than to differentiate myself from the other JDs. Would a combined JD/MBA improve my chances at corporate law? I've already written the GMAT and am working on applying to UToronto's business school. At this point I'm even considering starting to study for the CFA level 1, not just for the differentiation value but also to improve my fluency in business concepts...

 

[oman]



I'm assuming your interested in corporate law.

I just want to do interesting work and make money, man. Corporate law seems to be where it's at — I've worked with closely with both external and in-house counsel and had the opportunity to watch them do transactional work, and it seemed like really dynamic work that delivers new challenges every day. That's pretty much my idea of fun.

 

[Harold falcon]



I just want to do interesting work and make money, man. Corporate law seems to be where it's at — I've worked with closely with both external and in-house counsel and had the opportunity to watch them do transactional work, and it seemed like really dynamic work that delivers new challenges every day. That's pretty much my idea of fun.

So you don't want to be a lawyer, you want to be an accountant.

 

[oman]

what?

 

[brokencycle]



I just want to do interesting work and make money, man. Corporate law seems to be where it's at — I've worked with closely with both external and in-house counsel and had the opportunity to watch them do transactional work, and it seemed like really dynamic work that delivers new challenges every day. That's pretty much my idea of fun.

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, but in my last job, I worked with large law firms and corporate legal departments every day.

A few thoughts:
1. Corporate law is a pretty ambiguous term. The AMLAW firms are doing ~99% of their work for corporate clients (or other very large organizations).

2. I don't know if an MBA will help you (odds are it won't). If you were going to double major something like an MBT might be better.

3. What makes you think you can go to a foreign law school and get into a top US firm when kids graduating from top US schools can't get into those firms?

4. I don't think going to law school is a good investment, period. The legal market is well over-saturated as the birdman said. It likely won't get better (or if it does only briefly). For the first time ever really, law firms are finally feeling price pressures. Their corporate clients aren't willing to pay what they once did, and as we pull out of the recession, it doesn't look much better. I am willing to bet that there will be massive consolidation of the large US firms in the near term. Firms will do one of three things: merge/acquire to get huge and leverage scale, carve out a small niche and do nothing but that, or shut down.

5. If you still think going to law school is a good idea, I would say graduating top of your class is more important than the ranking. Also make sure you have lots of extra credentials like law review editor on your resume.

 

[Harold falcon]



what?

Transactional work is for paper pushers and accountants. It's mind-numbing **** that only autistics and people who obsessively do the same crap over and over again on a daily basis in a Rain Man like manner are cut out for. If you don't step foot in a courtroom more than once a year you aren't an attorney. You're a glorified notary who can add and subtract. You're an amanuensis. You are soulless. Empty. Your work is meaningless and once they outsource the legal profession yours will be the first sector taken up by the third world.

I loathe you people.

 

[Lord-Barrington]



Transactional work is for paper pushers and accountants. It's mind-numbing **** that only autistics and people who obsessively do the same crap over and over again on a daily basis in a Rain Man like manner are cut out for. If you don't step foot in a courtroom more than once a year you aren't an attorney. You're a glorified notary who can add and subtract. You're an amanuensis. You are soulless. Empty. Your work is meaningless and once they outsource the legal profession yours will be the first sector taken up by the third world.

I loathe you people.

Wow! That wasn't even directed at me and I feel strangely depressed

 

[brokencycle]



Transactional work is for paper pushers and accountants. It's mind-numbing **** that only autistics and people who obsessively do the same crap over and over again on a daily basis in a Rain Man like manner are cut out for. If you don't step foot in a courtroom more than once a year you aren't an attorney. You're a glorified notary who can add and subtract. You're an amanuensis. You are soulless. Empty. Your work is meaningless and once they outsource the legal profession yours will be the first sector taken up by the third world.

I loathe you people.

Be honest, they'll be the second to go. Lit support people and doc review attorneys will be first - they are already being outsourced or replaced by technology as fast as the state bar associations allow it.

 

[oman]



Transactional work is for paper pushers and accountants. It's mind-numbing **** that only autistics and people who obsessively do the same crap over and over again on a daily basis in a Rain Man like manner are cut out for. If you don't step foot in a courtroom more than once a year you aren't an attorney. You're a glorified notary who can add and subtract. You're an amanuensis. You are soulless. Empty. Your work is meaningless and once they outsource the legal profession yours will be the first sector taken up by the third world.

I think your implied definition of "transactional work" is unwarrantedly narrow. The stuff I got to participate in was far from repetitive — yes, contracts are contracts, and the same broad issues (e.g. IP, liability control etc) pop up, but there was a pretty broad continuum of substantive variance. And if you think the negotiations (anywhere between two to twelve months of hammerheading terms with legal depts of defense contractors and the like, with governing law scattered all over the world depending on the contract) and crisis resolutions could have been handled by an accountant, well, I suspect you're wrong. Maybe you're right in that such dynamism is not the norm, but it does exist, I assure you. Not to mention I wasn't exactly working in the most interesting sector in the world so I'm only optimistic from here on out.

And don't talk to me about the third world. I have witnessed firsthand the dynamics of business process outsourcing, and well, a hearty good luck to any firm that decides to outsource anything vaguely challenging to Bangalore or wherever. Maybe the low- and mid-end work can go out, but who wants to do that **** anyway... and even for the less taxing stuff I'm pretty sure will always be a need for some on-site counsel.

However, I do take your point that litigation is probably a safer area of focus (though not unqualifiedly so, in my opinion).

 

[oman]



5. If you still think going to law school is a good idea, I would say graduating top of your class is more important than the ranking. Also make sure you have lots of extra credentials like law review editor on your resume.

Point taken and appreciated... I guess these should have always been my priorities anyhow.

 

[Kai]

Given today's market, if I couldn't get into a top 5 (US) law school, I wouldn't even bother.

If your undergraduate degree is in one of the hard sciences, then maybe you could go a bit deeper (top 10 or so.)

Too many lawyers right now, chasing too few jobs.

 

[Bounder]

5. If you still think going to law school is a good idea, I would say graduating top of your class is more important than the ranking. Also make sure you have lots of extra credentials like law review editor on your resume.

Point taken and appreciated... I guess these should have always been my priorities anyhow.

Not really true. The law school you go to can open a lot of doors. Certain employers only interview at certain schools. Many employers will not even consider a resume if it doesn't come from one of their designated schools. So it is much better to graduate in the middle of your Yale law school class than at the top of your Podunk Tech law school class.

If you can get in to, say, Harvard, Yale or Stanford, you should go for it. The cache -- and the people you meet -- will stick with you for the rest of your life. Half of Bill Clinton's appointments were friends of his from law school. But something less prestigious than that, I might think hard about, especially if it's going to cost you an extra 100K.

But you had better hurry. I think you've already missed some U.S. deadlines.