Your advice sought on ebay dispute

[A Harris]

From a legal standpoint, I'm afraid you are generally responsible for getting the item to the buyer, whether he purchases insurance or not. You usually can't disclaim this obligation. It is kind of like trying to disclaim liability for negligence, you generally can't do it. This is one of the biggest misconceptions by sellers on eBay. That's why if you don't feel you can trust the postal service, you have to make insurance mandatory.

Care to point to any applicable law on that? I'm not saying it isn't so, but it does not make much sense. When I hand an item over to a shipping company, I cease to have any control over what happens to it, so I can hardly be negligent.

 

[strazzaque]

What I do as a seller is to take pics of the items in series, as I place them in express post satchels and seal them.
I am going to start producing little clips on my camera phone which will then be uploaded to youtube, and sent the buyer for confirmation, as pics can be disputed, for obvious reasons. Have not lost a package yet, from Oz to as far as the US, UK and Italy.

 

[edmorel]

I think sellers are way too afraid of neagtive feedback on ebay. So you'll have 1 negative, who gives a sh&#. The likelihood is that you'll leave him a comment to the effect of "buyer did not choose to take insurance, package lost by P.O.", He'll probably leave you something stupid, and no one that bidson your auctions will care. When I am buying something on ebay and the seller has a couple of hundred or thousand feedback, I don't even begin to look at the negative feedbacks unless it's below 98%. Don't be afraid of the ebay negative, buyers will try to hold that as ransome over your head. I had a case that I posted here where the guy refused to pay me on a pair of shoes unless I gave him the right of return. Then he told me he'd destroy me on feedback if I left a negative. My response was, start composing your negative feedback for me because you better believe that I am going to leave you a negative and report the transaction as uncompleted to ebay. He came back a day later and apologized and asked if I would be so kind as to simply agree to not complete the transaction and no feedbacks left.

if you care that much about perfect feedback, then just give him his money back. That is the only way he is going to be happy.

 

[cocostella]

Originally Posted by TheHoff

Was the package marked with a shipping weight? A shirt doesn't weigh much, but if it was a coat the difference should be noticable as the package weighed more at the post office than it did on arrival.
Sharp insight. Furthermore, a qick comparison of feedback (regardless of rational responses) tells the tale. Perhaps, after the empty package is returned and you verify shipping weight you can offer to split the difference ($20 isn't that much for an unfortunate accident for either of you), in return for either positive feedback, or none at all.

 

[whacked]

Originally Posted by edmorel

I think sellers are way too afraid of neagtive feedback on ebay. So you'll have 1 negative, who gives a sh&#. The likelihood is that you'll leave him a comment to the effect of "buyer did not choose to take insurance, package lost by P.O.", He'll probably leave you something stupid, and no one that bidson your auctions will care.

I really like this advice. In fact, I might use it to deal this week to deal with a similar case.

 

[Rolo]

This is an interesting issue.

Legal issues such as where the transfer of title took place could be looked at, but in a B2C transaction, I think that supplies the correct answer, I don't think that it provides the "right" answer.

Start with the premise that neither party is at fault. It was an error by the shipper.

The buyer was given the option to purchase insurance, but declined. Plus one for the shipper, but still not satisfying.

Why should the seller have to pay an additional fee to insure that the goods that he paid for and also picked up the tab for freight and handling? For me, that's an unsatisfying purchase experience especially if I don't get to choose the freight method.

On the other hand, when I buy something on eBay and the seller's shipping charge is listed and if he requires insurance, I factor that into my bid and have no ill feeling. Indeed, one of my best eBay purchases (both the item and experience - find me another Grella suit!!) came from Mack where I was required to take insurance.

Now consider the volume of business done. The buyer is highly likely to be doing a much smaller volume of business. Accordingly, the magnitude of loss for the buyer is much higher increasing the likelihood of ill feelings.

In such a case, as a merchant, I'd be likely to eat this one in the spirit of goodwill. Because of the insurance option, I might sing a different song if the buyer was making a questionable claim of damage. However, in this case the shipper clearly appears to be at fault.

As a seller I would consider requiring insurance for all transactions or assume that I'd eat these deals that are likely to be far and few between.

Also, eating a loss may result in more sales. I once ordered a jacket from bookster1 on ebay. It was never delivered. I chose to have the package delivered by regular mail from the UK rather than confirmed carrier because the difference in cost was significant. My choice, my problem. However, when I wrote to the seller to ask if the item had been shipped, the seller wrote back saying "You didn't receive it? I'll refund you paypal account." I'm definitely buying from this seller again.

 

[bengal-stripe]

Originally Posted by A Harris

When I hand an item over to a shipping company, I cease to have any control over what happens to it, so I can hardly be negligent.
The carrier is your agent, you employ him and you pay him to carry a packet from A to B (it doesn't matter if the money came from the buyer in the first place) . Only the seller has a contract with the carrier, if something goes wrong it's the seller; who holds the information, he is the one who (possibly) can claim compensation from the carrier. Suppose you ask the neighbour's boy to take a packet to the other end of town, boy fails to deliver (for whatever reason), do you think you can walk away from the deal: "I've handed the item over, I cease to have any control over what happens to it, so I can hardly be negligent."

Do you think a mail order company, be it amazon, Brooks Brothers, whoever could say: "Item lost, tough luck!"? amazon might not be charging for posting (over a certain amount), but they will employ different carriers for different items, as to reduce their risk. A cheap paperback goes by ordinary mail, and assuming it gets lost, gets replaced instantly, expensive electronic equipment goes via courier so that delivery and signature gets recorded.

What about fragile items? If you receive that Ming vase in pieces, do you think the seller has no responsibility? Maybe the seller used inappropriate packaging, maybe the carrier is at fault, but certainly it is not the buyer"˜s risk.

 

[deaddog]

Caveat emptor. You decline the insurance, you take the hit. Spoken from nasty experience - I returned close to $1000 worth of merchandise and failed to put insurance on it, and failed to require signature (via UPS). UPS left it on guy's front porch - some scumbag stole it, and I'm out all but $108 from UPS. Live and learn (at a big friggin cost I might add).

 

[distinctive]

It is impossible to keep a perfect profile without taking some monetary losses at times. Perhaps a compromise is in order since the post office is most likely at fault here.

 

[Countertenor]

This is quite the thread.

There are good points on both sides.

100% or not, mack, you're an excellent seller.

 

[alterion]

The people syang that merley offering insurance is not enough to disclaim you liability are probably correct. I understand your argument but as the seller its ultimatley still your responsability to get the package there on time this poster has it down here:

Why should the seller have to pay an additional fee to insure that the goods that he paid for and also picked up the tab for freight and handling? For me, that's an unsatisfying purchase experience especially if I don't get to choose the freight method.

If you want to be insured you probably need to make it mandatory part of the shipping fee or pay it yourself. While you are not at fault persay your ultimately still responsible. I would pony up the 40 USD once the package is returned and attempt to recover costs from the "goodwill" department of the post office - altough i have no idea how succesful this will be it probably will require good social engineering on your part.

.This would also maintain your 100% feedback which does help seel your products. If someone has a feedback of 1000+ at 100% it does make me more likely to click because it shows that they take exceptional care with every purchase and so as a buyer i feel safer in buying.
IANAL ofc though but i suspect the hassle and difficulty in attempting to keep your moeny will otherwise be worth substantially more than the $40.

 

[tonylumpkin]

As a buyer, your obligation is make prompt payment, under the terms of the auction agreement (including shipping costs if required), for any items on which you place the winning bid.

As the seller you have an obligation to deliver to the buyers possession, in the condition described in the auction, the exact item described and offered for sale. Conditional on the buyer having met the obligations stated above.

You gave the buyer the option of paying for insurance. Purchasing it was not one of the requirements of the auction contract. He chose not to, yet he has still met his obligation under the contract.

Therefore, imho, he has met his obligations under the contract..you have not, in that you have failed to deliver the agreed upon item to his possession.

My suggestion is make insurance a required part of the contract or you can't expect the buyer to buy it!

 

[tonylumpkin]

Sorry for the double post.

 

[bigbris1]

I would call the buyer & offer to split the difference with him; offer a similar item or a partial refund, move on. If he doesn't want to compromise, give him a full refund, move on.

I sold a dresser on ebay & shipped via FedEx. It arrived damaged. She alerted me, I filed a claim. Told her, either way she'd get her money back, but if she would allow time for the claim, I would just send the claim check to her.

She agreed & a couple weeks later, I got a check for the cost of the item $75, refunded her $100 & let her keep the dresser (which was repairable). She originally paid $125 shipped. I got a great feedback & a potential repeat buyer.

 

[rnoldh]

Quite the thread.

First, I'll say Mack is a great Ebay seller. Have you folks read his ad copy in his Ebay listing. Mack is sort of a Manton of Ebay listings. He really makes the material interesting.

I saw a couple of posts recommending splitting the loss with the buyer. That sounds good, but after I gave it some thought, I feel that is not right to the buyer. He did nothing wrong and fulfilled his part of the contract. Why should he suffer a loss?

Have you thought of offering him a $40 credit, Mack? That might be better for you than a cash refund, and might be acceptable to the buyer.

I always think in terms of putting myself in the other mans shoes. I challenge anyone to buy an item, and then receive an empty package from the USPS, and think "Oh well, I'll just eat the loss!". I would not and don't think many others would either.

I guess in the future Mack, you might take a risk for lower priced sale items, and build in insurance costs for more expensive items.

As to a 100% Feedback rating, it is very nice but not absolutely imperative for a successful Ebay seller. Whenever I see a seller with a Feedback score above 1000, and a 100% rating, I think that the seller might likely have been the victim of Feedback extortion a time or two.

As an example, I'm not an Ebay seller but I have a couple of friends that are. One of them has a very high Feedback number with a 100% positive rating. He told me that once he sold someone a tie and the person said he didn't receive it. My friend noticed that the buyer had a history of this behavior (determined from reading the buyers Feedback). My friend had a signed receipt saying that the package had been received. Nevertheless, he offered to refund the purchase price. The buyer wanted his shipping cost refunded too, or threatened to leave negative Feedback. My friend refunded everything, and placed the "buyer", on his restricted buyer list.

Was my friend extorted? Yes. Was it the right thing to do? Who knows. It was to him, to maintain a 100% Feedback. I'm not recommending that you do this Mack, but I can assure you that there are sellers that do this.