What stereo(s) do you listen to? What do you want?

[patrickBOOTH]

But McIntosh is made in New York. Just sayin. I do like that they have an amp called "Petrus" though.

 

[idfnl]



But McIntosh is made in New York. Just sayin. I do like that they have an amp called "Petrus" though.

Ken Shindo hand crafts every amp, they are works of art. He names most of his amps after French wine. There is the Vosne-Romanee, Corton- Charlemagne, and Montrachet just to name a few.

 

[patrickBOOTH]

I'll give him that.

 

[imatlas]

If I had my way I'd have a rack of McIntoch tube bullshit. But I is teh poor.

My Subaru came with a Macintosh stereo, stock. It does not have the same cachet that it used to.

 

[MarioImpemba]

A watt is a watt, and tubes add distortion. Anything that measures flat 20-to-20 with low noise is good enough for me. Amps are the worst possible item to throw money at in the chain.

 

[idfnl]



A watt is a watt, and tubes add distortion. Anything that measures flat 20-to-20 with low noise is good enough for me. Amps are the worst possible item to throw money at in the chain.

A watt is a watt mathematically, but the rest of your post is totally false. A tube does much more than add 'distortion'. I'm surprised you're so simplistic.

In your view, what is the best thing to throw money at in the chain? In my experience with hi-fi, your system is only as good as its weakest component and its much harder said than done to make a system measure 20hz to 20khz with a flat response... the room you're listening in will see to that.

 

[MarioImpemba]

Please share with us what a tube does besides add harmonic distortion over a comparable solid-state design.

 

[idfnl]



Please share with us what a tube does besides add harmonic distortion over a comparable solid-state design.

Please don't flip the question. I asked you first... please tell us what you'd invest your money in with a stereo. I'd be happy to indulge you, but it'd be nice to understand why you think an amplifier is the worst place to put money.

 

[Longmorn]

I am not a purist when it comes to tubes vs solid state (have heard great ARC tube amps and preamps) but - FWIW - if money were no object I'd probably go for Pass Labs class A mono-blocks. But that is assuming they're driving Vandersteen or Magico speakers - a drier voiced speaker would probably benefit from tubes. It's all about synergy, at the end of the day.

 

[freshcutgrass]

A watt is a watt, and tubes add distortion.

My 300B's throw the most lovely 8 distorted watts at my ears.

Please share with us what a tube does besides add harmonic distortion over a comparable solid-state design.

Keep in mind, it's the right kind of harmonic distortion (even order). Tubes sound "better" because their distortion characteristics are more musical. That's why guitar amps are tubes, as distortion is actually an intended result.

Tube amps clip much softer than solid state amps do. Tubes generally offer a simpler signal path. Tubes are more linear, with zero negative feedback (SET). A voltage amplifier has superior dynamic capabilities than a current amplifier. That's why my measly little 8 watts sound quite powerful.

The main drawback is with SET, you are limited to reasonably efficient speakers.

 

[idfnl]



My 300B's throw the most lovely 8 distorted watts at my ears.
Keep in mind, it's the right kind of harmonic distortion (even order). Tubes sound "better" because their distortion characteristics are more musical. That's why guitar amps are tubes, as distortion is actually an intended result.

Tube amps clip much softer than solid state amps do. Tubes generally offer a simpler signal path. Tubes are more linear, with zero negative feedback (SET). A voltage amplifier has superior dynamic capabilities than a current amplifier. That's why my measly little 8 watts sound quite powerful.

The main drawback is with SET, you are limited to reasonably efficient speakers.

You stole my thunder. I was going to post something similar to this

The 'deficiencies' of tube amplifiers are what leads to their rich tone and musical qualities. While my bedroom system is based on a tube amp, my main system is a Naim solid state amp. I am not a tube snob like many audiophiles, I just took exception to MarioImpemba's comments. A class A watt is not the same as a class D watt, and a watt produced thru a tube amp is not the same as a solid state amp. Its much more nuanced to tuned ears.

And I couldn't agree more. The interplay between components/the listening room is much more important than their specs on paper. I tried my tube amp in my main listening room and the Naim sounded better... it produced better bass in a much larger room. My bedroom is smaller and accommodates the tube amp better so its in there now.

It's like saying car x has 40 more horsepower than car y so therefore I am buying car x. If we extend the car analogy, tube amps produce lots of torque and much less horsepower while a solid state amp is the opposite. Both can be satisfying driving experiences but they are innately different.

 

[MarioImpemba]

Please don't flip the question. I asked you first... please tell us what you'd invest your money in with a stereo. I'd be happy to indulge you, but it'd be nice to understand why you think an amplifier is the worst place to put money.

Speakers, environment, tuning equipment, in that order. The electrical signal chain is so inconsequential on audible (perceivable) sound, given "adequate" gear, compared to the execution of sound energy/pressure waves within your listening environment.

My 300B's throw the most lovely 8 distorted watts at my ears.
Keep in mind, it's the right kind of harmonic distortion (even order). Tubes sound "better" because their distortion characteristics are more musical. That's why guitar amps are tubes, as distortion is actually an intended result.

You can easily replicate tube-like even-order harmonic distortion with media player plug-ins or other equipment, if desired, with the advantage that it can be disabled.

Why/when would someone run their system in to clipping?


Tubes generally offer a simpler signal path.

As long as the amplifier has a proper design, this is irrelevant.

You're describing headroom, which is pretty easy to accomplish with solid-state.

Ultimately, if your goal is sound recording replication, then you are doing a disservice by introduction artificial distortion. That is just my opinion, and ya'll love your tubes, and that's fine.


Quote:
Originally Posted by idfnl

A class A watt is not the same as a class D watt, and a watt produced thru a tube amp is not the same as a solid state amp. Its much more nuanced to tuned ears.

Oh boy, a Golden Ears devotee.

On the point of amplifier sound signature, I'll leave it to the experts, as I am not one:

"Any amp that can relay the audio signal with a reasonably flat spectrum and low distortion will sound like any other amp that does the same. Easy to prove, always disputed..."
- Ken Kantor (http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showtopic=1334&page=2)
Ken's credentials: http://www.kenkantor.com/resume.html

"Hirsch was infamous among audiophiles for believing that all audio electronics — amplifiers, CD players, etc. — sound the same. For example, in April 1977, he stated: “I do not believe that any amplifier that is reasonably good and operating as intended has any sound quality of its own, at least not in the sense that phono cartridges, speakers, and listening rooms have their distinctive sounds.”
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/reconsidering-julian-hirsch

Richard Clark $10k amplifier challenge: http://tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/

I also feel like I've read articles by sound engineers holding the same sentiment (possibly Hoffman, et al.).

ABX testing:
http://webpages.charter.net/fryguy/Amp_Sound.pdf
http://home.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_pwr.htm
http://www.nousaine.com/pdfs/AudiourbanLegendsTheAudioCritic.pdf
http://www.head-fi.org/t/486598/testing-audiophile-claims-and-myths

ABX testing consistently demonstrates there is no definitive audible difference between similar designed amplifiers.

 

[freshcutgrass]

You can easily replicate tube-like even-order harmonic distortion with media player plug-ins or other equipment, if desired

"Easily replicate" ????????????????????


That's like saying McDonalds can easily replicate a Michelin star restaurant meal. I suppose it is theoretically possible...call me when it happens. LOL!!!

Why/when would someone run their system in to clipping?

During brief periods of dynamic passages. Nobody is talking about cranking the volume to eleven.

Ultimately, if your goal is sound recording replication, then you are doing a disservice by introduction artificial distortion.

Distortion is an unavoidable byproduct of the process regardless of whether you are using solid state or tubes. Listening to live music, the instruments also give off distortion. Distortion is natural. To say there is no difference, and no difference could be heard is absurd. You could say that an ocean surf and nails on a chalkboard sound exactly the same...or that one is not any more pleasing to listen to than the other. I think this would be a very strange opinion.

Oh boy, a Golden Ears devotee. On the point of amplifier sound signature, I'll leave it to the experts, as I am not one:

You don't need golden ears to hear the difference.

 

[Medwed]

:foo:/\This demagoguery must stop. /\:foo:

 

[idfnl]



Speakers, environment, tuning equipment, in that order. The electrical signal chain is so inconsequential on audible (perceivable) sound, given "adequate" gear, compared to the execution of sound energy/pressure waves within your listening environment.

I would say environment far and away, source recording, then speakers, source, amplification, cabling.

I'm not sure how you can get from A to B (electrical signal chain to sound pressure in listening environment) without accounting for the quality of the signal path leading up to its conversion to sound pressure. You keep falling back on this subjective word "adequate" which doesn't say much since it means vastly different things to different people.

You can easily replicate tube-like even-order harmonic distortion with media player plug-ins or other equipment, if desired, with the advantage that it can be disabled.

When I did some work on my house, a contractor also said I could replicate wood beams. I said no thank you. With any careful examination you can see they're fake. Its the same with audio. Now, you can easily build an amplifier that emphasizes warmer characteristics and rolls off the top end in a tube like fashion, but the weight of the sound of a tube amplifier is missing. I suppose you can replicate that too... but in the end, why? Wouldn't a tube amp just be a better solution if you like that sound quality?

And, if we are talking about all these nuances of an amplifier, doesn't that detract from your point that amplification matters very little to none with "adequate gear".?

As long as the amplifier has a proper design, this is irrelevant.

You're describing headroom, which is pretty easy to accomplish with solid-state.

This is another generalistic statement that has no real meaning. Proper design is subjective. Some designers only work in class A, they believe that's proper design. Other believe tube/transistor hybridization is the only way to go. There are endless numbers of designs with efficacy, and they all sound different.

Headroom, again, if all amps are pretty much the same, why would this be relevant?

Oh boy, a Golden Ears devotee.

Now, now. Don't come across as provincial. Critical listening develops tuned ears.

All those articles you post are well and good, but I have never heard 2 amplifiers that sound the same. Its the same as taking all kinds of measurements of cars... same horsepower, same braking distance, same skidpad, same torque... somehow they feel completely different to drive. You're not accounting for the synergy a system has when components compliment each other or resolution, not to mention an amplifiers strengths and weaknesses within its "proper design", all these come out in playback.