What are some things in classic menswear that annoy you?

[Thin White Duke]

I know I'm just a luker and I havent posted any photos ever so I don't have a leg to stand on, but my fiancee is out of town and I'm bored at home so I feel compelled to post.

This is all coming from a 23 year old who is just starting to get into this world so a lot of it is strange to me and hasn't been normalized in the way that it is to many people who spend a significant amount of time discussing clothing on the internet.


Like others have said, the whole sprezzatura thing to me seems very stupid. A lot of people putting a lot of effort into making it look like they are nonchalant about dressing when it's incredibly obvious that they did so. And they tell you that they are doing it on purpose? Especially out of context of the internet. Men wont even wear suits unless required, and they go for a dark grey or navy. So it took me a while to get used to someone on the internet wearing a $3k bespoke purple double breasted suit with twelve wristbands and some fedora talking about how he looks like he "just threw something on" and was effortless because he has some buttons unbuttoned. If you want to dress like that, thats great, I just don't get the whole part about lying people that you have a casual attitude about it.

A lot of the trad stuff really made me feel weird for a while too. I grew up in a private/prep school my entire life (13 or 14 years up until I left for college) that dressed very much like the east coast ivy that people love to talk about. I'm young, so my school's version of that is a more new school but it's basically the same thing. We all dressed like our dads (because our moms were buying our clothes + we had uniforms for most of our lives too) who were golfers. We only knew people who dressed like that, I literally didn't know anything else. But there weren't "rules" no one ever talked about wearing basically only light khaki pants (navy was ok, or some go to hell color if you were bold), ocbds, navy blazers, lots of polos, only white socks, no black clothing etc.. its just how we dressed. To be honest, most guys don't even think about how they dress, they are just copying their friends and the guys a year older than them. It took me going to college to learn that literally no one else dressed like me except other fraternity kids. So to find out that a bunch of older guys on the internet are posting photos of themselves in their outfits and asking "is this trad?" and reading posts about people fighting over weird details or what was ok to wear made me a little uncomfortable for a while. Not that I was an ivy kid in the 60's or whenever people are looking back towards, but it was so close to home it felt like they were talking about and trying to imitate us.

No one ever would have asked "is this trad?" when I was going to school. We would have made fun of you, that would have been so ******* weird. We wouldn't have even known what that meant. My first thought was, why are you trying to copy this? I felt like people were trying to fit some sort of life they didn't have. (Not that I had an enviable life, it felt more like someone was dressing up in punk clothes but didn't go to shows and listen to the music or fit the lifestyle if that makes sense) I don't get why people just don't wear what they want, and not worry if its "trad" or not. Maybe this hits close to home because my style influence is very similar to trad stuff, but its natural because its what I was brought up around and what I enjoy wearing, not because I'm trying to fit an image. Or follow rules from 70 years ago that the people back then probably didn't even give a **** about or follow. I tihnk we've just cherry picked some photos and people and over-exaggerated it. Maybe I'm wrong.

Now that isn't to say I think it's dumb for people to comb over details of OCBDS for hours on end or whatever. I think it's dumb to care about those details to be "trad" or to fit an image, but if you care because you think it makes a more beautiful shirt, I can get behind that.


Also I think jeans and blazer combos are hideous. Reminds me of 50 year old men in boot cut jeans and poorly fitting suits having a "night out". In my mind there are distinct levels of formality with clothing and I don't like skipping around that much. Something about the rough utilitarian fabric of jeans and the softer, fine fabric of a jacket does not go together in my mind. Sid Mashburn seems to be the only person I've seen who I don't mind when he does this, and it's only if he's wearing white jeans.


Something I also was initially put off from was the whole "luxury lifestyle" that kind of seems to go with tailoring. Im starting to understand that I like suits and wearing suits because I think they are beautiful, (but I also just enjoy clothing in general) but I think a lot of people are drawn to them because they see them as a symbol of power and wealth. These people like suits but also like luxury watch brands, luxury cars, European vacations, fine whiskeys etc... I'm getting a little tired of the "luxury" persona, the blogs or personalities who seem to cover the whole gamut and try to pump up the whole "manly" or "gentlemen" persona. I think its fine if you like those things individually, but I think a lot of people just try to fit an image more-so than have genuine interests in all of those things. I guess I wish when I was looking into tailoring all the other baggage of the "lifestyle" people associate with it didn't always have to tag along. Just seems a little contrived.

Excellent SF debut there. Well done!

 

[classicalthunde]

I know I'm just a luker and I havent posted any photos ever so I don't have a leg to stand on, but my fiancee is out of town and I'm bored at home so I feel compelled to post.

This is all coming from a 23 year old who is just starting to get into this world so a lot of it is strange to me and hasn't been normalized in the way that it is to many people who spend a significant amount of time discussing clothing on the internet.


Like others have said, the whole sprezzatura thing to me seems very stupid. A lot of people putting a lot of effort into making it look like they are nonchalant about dressing when it's incredibly obvious that they did so. And they tell you that they are doing it on purpose? Especially out of context of the internet. Men wont even wear suits unless required, and they go for a dark grey or navy. So it took me a while to get used to someone on the internet wearing a $3k bespoke purple double breasted suit with twelve wristbands and some fedora talking about how he looks like he "just threw something on" and was effortless because he has some buttons unbuttoned. If you want to dress like that, thats great, I just don't get the whole part about lying people that you have a casual attitude about it.

A lot of the trad stuff really made me feel weird for a while too. I grew up in a private/prep school my entire life (13 or 14 years up until I left for college) that dressed very much like the east coast ivy that people love to talk about. I'm young, so my school's version of that is a more new school but it's basically the same thing. We all dressed like our dads (because our moms were buying our clothes + we had uniforms for most of our lives too) who were golfers. We only knew people who dressed like that, I literally didn't know anything else. But there weren't "rules" no one ever talked about wearing basically only light khaki pants (navy was ok, or some go to hell color if you were bold), ocbds, navy blazers, lots of polos, only white socks, no black clothing etc.. its just how we dressed. To be honest, most guys don't even think about how they dress, they are just copying their friends and the guys a year older than them. It took me going to college to learn that literally no one else dressed like me except other fraternity kids. So to find out that a bunch of older guys on the internet are posting photos of themselves in their outfits and asking "is this trad?" and reading posts about people fighting over weird details or what was ok to wear made me a little uncomfortable for a while. Not that I was an ivy kid in the 60's or whenever people are looking back towards, but it was so close to home it felt like they were talking about and trying to imitate us.

No one ever would have asked "is this trad?" when I was going to school. We would have made fun of you, that would have been so ******* weird. We wouldn't have even known what that meant. My first thought was, why are you trying to copy this? I felt like people were trying to fit some sort of life they didn't have. (Not that I had an enviable life, it felt more like someone was dressing up in punk clothes but didn't go to shows and listen to the music or fit the lifestyle if that makes sense) I don't get why people just don't wear what they want, and not worry if its "trad" or not. Maybe this hits close to home because my style influence is very similar to trad stuff, but its natural because its what I was brought up around and what I enjoy wearing, not because I'm trying to fit an image. Or follow rules from 70 years ago that the people back then probably didn't even give a **** about or follow. I tihnk we've just cherry picked some photos and people and over-exaggerated it. Maybe I'm wrong.

Now that isn't to say I think it's dumb for people to comb over details of OCBDS for hours on end or whatever. I think it's dumb to care about those details to be "trad" or to fit an image, but if you care because you think it makes a more beautiful shirt, I can get behind that.


Also I think jeans and blazer combos are hideous. Reminds me of 50 year old men in boot cut jeans and poorly fitting suits having a "night out". In my mind there are distinct levels of formality with clothing and I don't like skipping around that much. Something about the rough utilitarian fabric of jeans and the softer, fine fabric of a jacket does not go together in my mind. Sid Mashburn seems to be the only person I've seen who I don't mind when he does this, and it's only if he's wearing white jeans.


Something I also was initially put off from was the whole "luxury lifestyle" that kind of seems to go with tailoring. Im starting to understand that I like suits and wearing suits because I think they are beautiful, (but I also just enjoy clothing in general) but I think a lot of people are drawn to them because they see them as a symbol of power and wealth. These people like suits but also like luxury watch brands, luxury cars, European vacations, fine whiskeys etc... I'm getting a little tired of the "luxury" persona, the blogs or personalities who seem to cover the whole gamut and try to pump up the whole "manly" or "gentlemen" persona. I think its fine if you like those things individually, but I think a lot of people just try to fit an image more-so than have genuine interests in all of those things. I guess I wish when I was looking into tailoring all the other baggage of the "lifestyle" people associate with it didn't always have to tag along. Just seems a little contrived.

well said, especially the trad piece...i'm a bit older than you but growing up in new england and going to a prep school this hit is spot on

 

[Andy57]

I know I'm just a luker and I havent posted any photos ever so I don't have a leg to stand on, but my fiancee is out of town and I'm bored at home so I feel compelled to post.
[...]
Men wont even wear suits unless required, and they go for a dark grey or navy. So it took me a while to get used to someone on the internet wearing a $3k bespoke purple double breasted suit [...]
Im starting to understand that I like suits and wearing suits because I think they are beautiful, (but I also just enjoy clothing in general) but I think a lot of people are drawn to them because they see them as a symbol of power and wealth.

So, men won't wear suits unless forced to and if someone wears a suit for the sheer pleasure of it, you disapprove. But it's okay for you to do so because you're not one of those people drawn to them because they're a symbol of power and wealth? And the reason for that is you grew up wearing "trad" clothing because that's just what you wore?

I see.

 

[Bromley]

Cynical, argumentative replies about classic menswear annoy me.

 

[nreid2946]

So, men won't wear suits unless forced to and if someone wears a suit for the sheer pleasure of it, you disapprove. But it's okay for you to do so because you're not one of those people drawn to them because they're a symbol of power and wealth? And the reason for that is you grew up wearing "trad" clothing because that's just what you wore?

I see.

I agree it does seem a bit strange.

And what is wrong with wanting to become more powerful?

This could simply mean becoming a better version of yourself. Or not having to worry about money.

Unless the poster is directly referring to an outright boastful or flamboyant attitude towards it. Otherwise, I don't see anything wrong with wanting to be yourself. As long as you respect others.

 

[ShoemakerCaine]

People pushing the whole "I aM A gENtlEmAn!" thing in your face right to the point of SAYING it out loud, wearing a cheap suit and talking smack about what whisky is the best and what car they are going to drive one day.

At the age of 20 or so, those guys should maybe trying to learn how to be a bit humble first.

 

[Andy57]

Cynical, argumentative replies about classic menswear annoy me.

Good to know.

This entire thread annoys me.

 

[samtalkstyle]

People pushing the whole "I aM A gENtlEmAn!" thing in your face right to the point of SAYING it out loud, wearing a cheap suit and talking smack about what whisky is the best and what car they are going to drive one day.

At the age of 20 or so, those guys should maybe trying to learn how to be a bit humble first.

It's bizarre how far removed the instagrammers' definition of gentleman is, from the traditional meaning of the term. Boggles my mind.

 

[amiga505]

my list:

- bracelets;
- monks;
- tassel loafers;
- ticket pockets.

 

[amiga505]

Yeh... I think we should probably distinguish between the original (still meretricious) but subtle concept of sprezzatura as opposed to the more... theatrical practices such as fellows carefully pulling the back blade of neckties askew, folding one collar point above the lapel, etc.

I don’t see it as some sort of heinous moral failure but it’s a boldly pretentious affectation and thus unlikely to be admired.

I think that Hugo Jacomet gave a very good piece of advice in his video on sprezzatura, when he said something to the effect that when trying to achieve it one should always be considering which items one can possibly leave out, rather than which items one should add.

 

[nreid2946]

People pushing the whole "I aM A gENtlEmAn!" thing in your face right to the point of SAYING it out loud, wearing a cheap suit and talking smack about what whisky is the best and what car they are going to drive one day.

At the age of 20 or so, those guys should maybe trying to learn how to be a bit humble first.

Very true.

I'm just about 21. And I do feel that generally speaking there is an arrogance within the community, especially younger ones.

There is a feeling that you have to over-do it. It's an easy trap to fall into. Wearing all the accessories and such.

Less is indeed more.

That being said, from my perspective. One thing I hate more than arrogant young people (because they're just in need of guidance really) is an older individual being patronising without the actual authority on it.

For instance, the older man who wears designer brands, therefore thinking they dress well, yet from my opinion is simply wasting their money on crap, and cannot dress for ****.

It's a double edged sword. People like Hugo Jacomet, and Raphael from Gentleman's Gazette give amazing advice, but there is a lot of crap out there.

 

[Encathol Epistemia]

I'm annoyed by how restricted the choices are for shoes in very wide (US EEE) shoes, to say nothing of shoes that are accommodating to high arches and insteps.

So I guess I'm mostly annoyed at my weird, dumb elephant feet.

Yeh... I think we should probably distinguish between the original (still meretricious) but subtle concept of sprezzatura as opposed to the more... theatrical practices such as fellows carefully pulling the back blade of neckties askew, folding one collar point above the lapel, etc.

I don’t see it as some sort of heinous moral failure but it’s a boldly pretentious affectation and thus unlikely to be admired.

To borrow from the knowledge of linguistics that my squandered undergraduate education left me with, sprezzatura makes sense descriptively as analyzing and explaining the way that a group of people actually behave, but fails prescriptively as defining and calcifying an ultimately arbitrary set of rules on the basis of dubious authority. (Descriptivism is what linguists do; prescriptivism is what your worst English teacher did. The linguist hears, "he be working Tuesdays," and evaluates it as a habitual construction of a distinctive language; the awful English teacher hears it and has a groundless apoplectic fit over how 'wrong' it is, despite being comprehensible common practice to the speaker)

As a stiff, awkward, profoundly uncool weirdo, I reject the idea of sprezzatura out of hand, because my attempting it would work out much like a contemporary Saturday Night Live sketch, unless I do it accidentally, which I can't say won't happen.

People pushing the whole "I aM A gENtlEmAn!" thing in your face right to the point of SAYING it out loud, wearing a cheap suit and talking smack about what whisky is the best and what car they are going to drive one day.

At the age of 20 or so, those guys should maybe trying to learn how to be a bit humble first.

I sometimes like to think of myself as a gentleman, but I prefer to think of it as creating a sense of obligation on how I should present myself and behave, which includes not grandiosely declaring that I am one. It's both an instrument of self-control and a psychological benefit; it restricts my range of action, some things being 'ungentlemanly', but also makes me feel better because it mitigates ambiguity and provides a kind of satisfaction about how I relate to the world.

Not a few complaints in this thread seem to hinge upon whether something is directed outward toward society to try to command some kind of regard or special consideration rather than

inward toward an individual's private satisfaction.​

 

[Andy57]

What a circle-jerk of negativity this thread is.

 

[ShoemakerCaine]

Not a few complaints in this thread seem to hinge upon whether something is directed outward toward society to try to command some kind of regard or special consideration rather than
inward toward an individual's private satisfaction.

That's it.Don't know the actual quote, but somebody once said (hate to talk like this, not giving sources ) "judge a man by how he behaves when nobody is looking".

 

[buddingman]

So, men won't wear suits unless forced to and if someone wears a suit for the sheer pleasure of it, you disapprove. But it's okay for you to do so because you're not one of those people drawn to them because they're a symbol of power and wealth? And the reason for that is you grew up wearing "trad" clothing because that's just what you wore?

I see.

I see the confusion. I probably didn't articulate myself well enough.

Finish the last part of that sentence:

"So it took me a while to get used to someone on the internet wearing a $3k bespoke purple double breasted suit with twelve wristbands and some fedora talking about how he looks like he "just threw something on" and was effortless because he has some buttons unbuttoned."

I was pointing out its strange that people will obviously put so much effort into their outfit then trying to give off an attitude of "I just threw this on". I love seeing people wear those suits. I totally support that. I just don't get putting a ton of effort into dressing and trying to act like you are casual and don't care.

Also I don't think I ever said people shouldn't wear suits for the sheer pleasure of it? And if my post came across that way I didn't mean it to.


I agree with what what has been said since my post on this thread. There is a distinction between classic sprezzatura and what it now has become. I was talking more about what people have now turned it into.