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The watch DISCUSSION thread

hpreston

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I think all "Bucherer" watches prior to (and maybe even at least some after) the offshoot house brand "Carl F. Bucherer" was formed in 2001 were farmed out to various actual watchmaking houses (but I may be wrong on that), so it may be difficult/impossible to know who even made that particular watch.

What does the friend of a friend restorer say? What movement does the watch have? What is the size? What is his assessment of condition, etc?

I think the design of that specific watch looks quite elegant; I like it a lot as a subdued dress watch but with possibly 3 caveats:
1: I personally don't like dates on such simple dials (I struggle with the 1958 Omega Seamaster my father gave me (below) for that very reason), let alone day + date. It just looks too casual to me.​
2: It may just be that photo, but if the "THU" and the "11" are not exactly aligned, it would really bother me.​
3: Also, it looks to me like a stub marker is missing to the right of the day/date window at 3:00, but I may be wrong on that.​
(2 and 3 may show the pre-restoration condition; of course I cannot know that.)
Following Omega and Longines discussion above.


Regarding the Bucherer, I agree with the Day, date complication, would rather not have it.


Here is what he provided:

Movement: ETA 2638 Chronometer Grade, 25 jewels
Tick Rate: 6 times per second (21,600 A/h)
Model: 1510A from the 1960s
Dial Markings: Bucherer, Officially Certified Chronometer, T Swiss Made T
Case Material: Stainless Steel
Caseback Markings: Swiss Made, Antimagnetic, Stainless Steel, Automatic, Shock Resistant, Water Resistant
Case Size: 34mm
Power Reserve: ~42 hours
Strap: New custom made strap made from high-end "Color 8" Horween Shell Cordovan leather, 18mm wide, unlined
Water Resistant: Waterproof and gasket oiled but not rated to modern standards
Incabloc Shock Protection: Yes
Lume: Yes, Tritium

What has been replaced or done on this watch?
The watch was serviced. The mainspring, rotor bearing, cannon pinion, and crown gasket were replaced. Original crystal was polished. Original dial, hands, and crown.
 

NakedYoga

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Another beauty. Congrats!

You can put any leather strap color on that and it will ooze class.
That is so true. The current strap looks excellent, but I'm also imagining Black, Havana, Conker, Cognac, Burgundy, Navy, Dark Green (all smooth leather/skins) and they all look good to me.
Thanks. I think shades of brown would look best on this. I'd shy away from black, although I might be wrong. This is the watch I wear at the office 90% of the time, and 100% of the time when I'm in court. So, at least for court, green, burgundy, and navy are probably out. The current strap is faux alligator. I've considered commissioning a better quality strap, but I'd likely want it to have some visual interest. The watch is already somewhat boring, so I think a smooth strap would turn the bore up to 11.

Where do you guys go for vintage watches? Vintage Omegas, especially the piepans, are so cool to me. Is eBay a safe bet?
I got that Longines I posted above from eBay 10+ years ago before I really knew anything about watches. I think I got lucky with it. It's a manual wind, but still in decent order I guess. Although I really should have it serviced, and I cracked the crystal by dropping it on a courthouse floor over a year ago so that needs to be fixed. Anyway, if I did it again, I don't think that I'd go the eBay route for a vintage piece, mainly because it's very easy to get taken for a ride in the online "vintage" (quotes intentional) watch market if you don't really know and understand what you're looking for/at other than the exterior. Again, my Longines isn't some rarity or anything like that, but I think I did get lucky picking it up for a song. It was actually the watch I eventually settled for once I couldn't find a good condition vintage Omega Constellation or DeVille in my price range which at the time was much different than it is now.

Good luck on whatever you decide to pick up!
 

bdavro23

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Where do you guys go for vintage watches? Vintage Omegas, especially the piepans, are so cool to me. Is eBay a safe bet?
Its often repeated, but you might not have heard it in the context of your new found hobby: You are always buying the seller. Keep that in mind as you are looking at the usually wide range of pricing online. Sometimes you get lucky, other times you get what you've paid for or less.
 

mak1277

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Where do you guys go for vintage watches? Vintage Omegas, especially the piepans, are so cool to me. Is eBay a safe bet?
Be careful. I feel like the older Omegas are some of the most likely redials/Frankenwatches out there. Here’s mine


427E788A-0B2A-4872-B188-C84DC1834D4A.jpeg


How many mistakes can you find on the dial of this one (not including the fact that I set neither the time nor the date before taking this picture)?
 

mhip

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A good supply of vintage Omega and Rolex regularly show up in my gilt.com emails.
I believe they take returns.
I've never ordered a watch from them, as the specs they post sometimes leave something to be desired. If nothing else, it's a good resource to comp-shop...
 

Adsky Luck

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Personal opinion but it's smart to stay off vintage watches altogether, I think.
They are only good as collector's pieces for one's well stocked display cases but then one has to be knowledgeable about them to avoid sinking good money into useless junk with no re-sale value.
Other than that, vintage watches are poor time keepers if they are authentic, so no good as everyday wearers.
They are also fragile both out of old age and because even in the 1970s shock-proof and water resist were in their infancy, not to mention gasket and seals deteriorating.
On the other hand, if a vintage watch keeps a good time it's almost certainly a Franken, with most of the movement parts replaced.
Typically mechanical movements from the 1970s had all of 10 to 15 years of life in them and it's decades past it already.
To sum up, unless a vintage watch comes as a hand down from your family and has sentimental value, you don't need it.
 

venessian

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Following Omega and Longines discussion above.

Regarding the Bucherer, I agree with the Day, date complication, would rather not have it.

Here is what he provided:
Movement: ETA 2638 Chronometer Grade, 25 jewels
Tick Rate: 6 times per second (21,600 A/h)
Model: 1510A from the 1960s
Dial Markings: Bucherer, Officially Certified Chronometer, T Swiss Made T
Case Material: Stainless Steel
Caseback Markings: Swiss Made, Antimagnetic, Stainless Steel, Automatic, Shock Resistant, Water Resistant
Case Size: 34mm
Power Reserve: ~42 hours
Strap: New custom made strap made from high-end "Color 8" Horween Shell Cordovan leather, 18mm wide, unlined
Water Resistant: Waterproof and gasket oiled but not rated to modern standards
Incabloc Shock Protection: Yes
Lume: Yes, Tritium

What has been replaced or done on this watch?
The watch was serviced. The mainspring, rotor bearing, cannon pinion, and crown gasket were replaced. Original crystal was polished. Original dial, hands, and crown.
My further thoughts:

SIZE:
34mm is small for a man's watch, just at the limit, so check the fit for your wrist. Even a 1mm increase/decrease has visible impact. 34mm will appear a bit smaller, a bit cramped with that day/date window. If you cannot access a similar white-dialed simple 34mm watch to try on at a shop, you can print this image to scale (34mm = 1 11/32") and visually check on your wrist. Not the same thing at all as real, but better than nothing.

Bucherer orig.jpeg



CONDITION:
The service description is pretty standard; but what is still not clear to me:
1) WARRANTY: Does that shop warranty the service they performed for some normal period? They should.

2) DIAL: If the mis-aligned day and date numerals and the missing marker at 3:00 were pre-service and have been corrected, or if your original photograph (attached here again below) was made pre- or post-service.
> If that image is pre-service, ask for current post-service photographs.
> If post-service, just run away and don't look back. I would not buy from a shop that sloppy and uninformative (unless we have missed other communications between yourself and the shop).

Bucherer.jpeg


3) ACCURACY: Did the shop not time (Timegrapher, etc) the watch after the service? They typically do that. Ask for the timed beat rate numbers.
FYI: COSC standard deviation for a chronometer like the Bucherer ranges from +1/-1 seconds/24 hours (best) to +6/-4 seconds/24 hours (worst). For that watch I would say that ~+10/-10 seconds/24 hours after service is acceptable; ~+20/-20 seconds/24 hours worrisome; ~+40/-40 seconds/24 hours = forget it. For more detail see this very good article regarding reasonable accuracy as well as this image. That chronometer should preferably fall among the 2nd and 3rd rows, not so much for accuracy's sake (who cares on a non-chronograph, really) but rather to know that the movement isn't really compromised and failing further:
Reasonable Accuracy Expectations by Watch Type.jpg
 

venessian

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Thanks. I think shades of brown would look best on this. I'd shy away from black, although I might be wrong. This is the watch I wear at the office 90% of the time, and 100% of the time when I'm in court. So, at least for court, green, burgundy, and navy are probably out. The current strap is faux alligator. I've considered commissioning a better quality strap, but I'd likely want it to have some visual interest. The watch is already somewhat boring, so I think a smooth strap would turn the bore up to 11.
I concur with all of that.
 

Loathing

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Personal opinion but it's smart to stay off vintage watches altogether, I think.
They are only good as collector's pieces for one's well stocked display cases but then one has to be knowledgeable about them to avoid sinking good money into useless junk with no re-sale value.
Other than that, vintage watches are poor time keepers if they are authentic, so no good as everyday wearers.
They are also fragile both out of old age and because even in the 1970s shock-proof and water resist were in their infancy, not to mention gasket and seals deteriorating.
On the other hand, if a vintage watch keeps a good time it's almost certainly a Franken, with most of the movement parts replaced.
Typically mechanical movements from the 1970s had all of 10 to 15 years of life in them and it's decades past it already.
To sum up, unless a vintage watch comes as a hand down from your family and has sentimental value, you don't need it.
I’m no expert but this feels highly exaggerated to me. My dad has a 1960 JLC Memovox that he has worn every day for 60 years and it still keeps near perfect time. He services it about once every 10 years. JLC is hardly the pinnacle of watch making and a Memovox was a relatively inexpensive watch in the ‘60s. I’d guess that an Omega would perform similarly and a Patek would perform better.

There are also very good reasons for wanting a vintage watch. They have a much less mass-produced feel to them which to my eye makes them more characterful. The dial layouts and designs were also just better looking for the most part — the fonts in particular are nicer and look hand finished too. Pateks, for example, have become generally much uglier from the 1980s onwards in my view. The case sizes are also generally smaller, which is a bonus for my taste. There is also a lot more variety in vintage models, including case shapes, hand shapes and lug design — most companies now have smaller ranges and are less creative, generally focusing on churning out blockbuster models.
 

venessian

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Personal opinion but it's smart to stay off vintage watches altogether, I think.
They are only good as collector's pieces for one's well stocked display cases but then one has to be knowledgeable about them to avoid sinking good money into useless junk with no re-sale value.
Other than that, vintage watches are poor time keepers if they are authentic, so no good as everyday wearers.
They are also fragile both out of old age and because even in the 1970s shock-proof and water resist were in their infancy, not to mention gasket and seals deteriorating.
On the other hand, if a vintage watch keeps a good time it's almost certainly a Franken, with most of the movement parts replaced.
Typically mechanical movements from the 1970s had all of 10 to 15 years of life in them and it's decades past it already.

To sum up, unless a vintage watch comes as a hand down from your family and has sentimental value, you don't need it.
Come on.
Of course opinions differ but I think a lot of what you wrote ranges from the very highly subjective to the exaggerated to the definitely incorrect, especially the bolded statements above.
 

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