The Watch Appreciation Thread - Part two (Rolex, Patek Philippe, Audemars Piguet, Jaeger LeCoultre,

[TheFoo]

I dont think you can call the introduction of computers into design, "arbitrary". It certainly changes things, of that there is no doubt, and I will let others opine whether the net effect has been good or bad, charm vs cold industrialism, etc. You can make similar distinction with cars. Modern cars are certainly better in most identifiable metrics than older cars, but many of them lack the feel we get from classics. A modern 911 is an amazing car, but feels a world away from the more mechanical and connected 1985 version.

I think watches, cars, and most other modern things are better than their forebears. There are exceptions to this rule, of course. But it does raise questions about what we're paying for. Its hard to sell us charm, history, nostalgia while at the same time using mass production and economies of scale. At some point its all bullshit and we're just paying for marketing.

Not arbitrary in that there was no impact, but arbitrary as a red line of bifurcation between the “good old days” and the “soulless now”. There have been countless technological advancements since wristwatch production began in the early 20th century and nobody ever tried to stop the train of progress on the grounds of preserving handicraft. From day one, it has always been about using the best industrial tools possible. The great wristwatches of the 20th century and their makers were admired for their quality and capabilities, not for how handmade they were.

Fetishizing handicraft in wristwatches is a purely contemporary fixation and thus not “authentic” with respect to horological tradition.

 

[9thsymph]

True, and that's partly due to the strong puritan current in this world (which I oppose, fwiw, which ain't much).

Exactly (though, I'd say it encompasses world views beyond the puritanical...). In my own neck of the woods (Arts), the pressure to maintain various stereotypical tropes (the disheveled, impoverished eccentric, etc...) _can be_ as contrived and snobbish as ostentatious material possessions. This mind set is actually something that drove me toward an affection for some of these things - it became a sort of critique of that pretense (at least in my own mind). I lived in Williamsburg from 1998-2004 and was deeply inside the Brooklyn band/art scene that emerged during that specific time. The [hidden] wealth on hand relative to the personal mythologies trafficked via image/mimesis was comical...

On the other hand, their are of course many participants in the art/design scene that are oblivious to these things for less cynical reasons, which I'm guessing was more to your point...just thought I'd add some color...

 

[radicaldog]

I think watches, cars, and most other modern things are better than their forebears. There are exceptions to this rule, of course. But it does raise questions about what we're paying for. Its hard to sell us charm, history, nostalgia while at the same time using mass production and economies of scale. At some point its all bullshit and we're just paying for marketing.

Exactly. How this is remotely controversial?

 

[TheFoo]

Exactly. How this is remotely controversial?

It is controversial when your nostalgia is a false memory.

 

[TheFoo]

I give up. I trust the people on here with the patience to follow this discussion can see how you're twisting what your opponents are saying. Take your rhetorical tricks back to the court or the prep school debating society where they belong. When you make MD at whatever usurious organisation you work for, just buy the most expensive Patek available like your boss. You'll embarrass yourself less than if you try to justify your choices on aesthetic grounds.

On the contrary, maybe venturing outside academia would both broaden and sharpen your perspective.

 

[9thsymph]

It is controversial when your nostalgia is a false memory.

projection of the year

 

[radicaldog]

Exactly (though, I'd say it encompasses world views beyond the puritanical...). In my own neck of the woods (Arts), the pressure to maintain various stereotypical tropes (the disheveled, impoverished eccentric, etc...) _can be_ as contrived and snobbish as ostentatious material possessions. This mind set is actually something that drove me toward an affection for some of these things - it became a sort of critique of that pretense (at least in my own mind). I lived in Williamsburg from 1998-2004 and was deeply inside the Brooklyn band/art scene that emerged during that specific time. The [hidden] wealth on hand relative to the personal mythologies trafficked via image/mimesis was comical...

On the other hand, their are of course many participants in the art/design scene that are oblivious to these things for less cynical reasons, which I'm guessing was more to your point...just thought I'd add some color...

Tell me about it. My spouse is an artist, well-recognised in her field on the European scene, so I hear a lot of these stories. (Though I think the Euro scene has quite different dynamics because a handful of elite art schools aren't so dominant here, nor is philanthropy, etc)

 

[patrick_b]

I'm here on SF and enjoy reading and exchanging views on consumerist BS with internet strangers and weirdos, but I don't pretend that any of it matters.

Or that your opinions are empirically right or wrong. They are opinions.

 

[radicaldog]

Imagine thinking this guy is an authority on aesthetics and design. I especially love the shiny pocket square that matches his lining, and the green thread on the boutonnière.

 

[TheFoo]

Or that your opinions are empirically right or wrong. They are opinions.

If your opinion is based on the supposed fact that is historically inaccurate, it means your opinion is wrong at worst or accidentally right at best.

 

[mak1277]

View attachment 1591338

Imagine thinking this guy is an authority on aesthetics and design. I especially love the shiny pocket square that matches his lining, and the green thread on the boutonnière.

So I should listen to the navel gazing, overthinking academic instead of the master watchmaker. Got it. Definitely time for me to reevaluate my entire life.

 

[9thsymph]

If your opinion is based on the supposed fact that is historically inaccurate, it means your opinion is wrong at worst or accidentally right at best.

Wait, wait , wait...didn't you try and convince me two days ago that your Biden-influencer theory was to some degree based on [your self-admitted error of historical fact] that he had been trotting around, campaigning and debating with his Rolex, BEFORE January? And that the press were making a big deal about it BEFORE January? It's almost like you had formed an opinion based either on a false memory, or a distorted representation of the facts.

 

[9thsymph]

So I should listen to the navel gazing, overthinking academic instead of the master watchmaker. Got it. Definitely time for me to reevaluate my entire life.

I'd reckon there are many distinctions between maker and designer that are worth discussing...(I'm not too familiar with Smith's designs, but enough so that it seems he is more regarded for the make/movement rather than the design/aesthetic vs say, gerald genta, or the like...there is of course a large grey area, but distinctions to consider nonetheless?)

 

[mak1277]

I'd reckon there are many distinctions between maker and designer that are worth discussing...(I'm not too familiar with Smith's designs, but enough so that it seems he is more regarded for the make/movement rather than the design/aesthetic vs say, gerald genta, or the like...there is of course a large grey area, but distinctions to consider nonetheless?)

But if all we’re talking about is the aesthetic appeal of a watch, it doesn’t matter what anyone thinks except the person wearing it. I certainly don’t care what you or @radicaldog (or anyone else) think about what I’m wearing on my wrist.

 

[9thsymph]

But if all we’re talking about is the aesthetic appeal of a watch, it doesn’t matter what anyone thinks except the person wearing it. I certainly don’t care what you or @radicaldog (or anyone else) think about what I’m wearing on my wrist.

And yet here you are, convincing me you don't care what I think...

Aside from that, I'd just say I'm not trying to advocate for a "side" here - and I did note the "large grey area" by which I meant the intersection between make and design...