The Watch Appreciation Thread - Part two (Rolex, Patek Philippe, Audemars Piguet, Jaeger LeCoultre,

[TheFoo]

I kind of see what you're saying but maybe it's because I'm dumb, but that still looks like they polished the watch to restore the edge instead of polishing to remove a scratch.

Regular polishing would never restore the edge. It will only further soften it. Edges are lost over time precisely because of polishing.

If a watch case is sharper after polishing than before, it has been re-cut.

When you send your watch back to the manufacturer for service and polishing, they don’t re-cut. They free-float the case against a lap wheel. Usually this means very, very little material is lost, but the edges will round-off ever so slightly. On steel, if done skillfully, it might take multiple polishes to visibly tell the difference. On gold, even one light polish can be enough to feel the loss of sharpness.

What is LAWW?

Los Angeles Watchworks.

 

[sinnedk]

thanks @TheFoo

 

[bdavro23]

Regular polishing would never restore the edge. It will only further soften it. Edges are lost over time precisely because of polishing.

If a watch case is sharper after polishing than before, it has been re-cut.

When you send your watch back to the manufacturer for service and polishing, they don’t re-cut. They free-float the case against a lap wheel. Usually this means very, very little material is lost, but the edges will round-off ever so slightly. On steel, if done skillfully, it might take multiple polishes to visibly tell the difference. On gold, even one light polish can be enough to feel the loss of sharpness.

If you "re-cut" a case, you are taking off substantially more material than you would during a polish. To create a sharp edge, you have to remove material to the point that you reach the trough of whatever rounded line you wish to define. Then you have to blend that section with the rest of the case. When that work is done, the case will be necessarily and measurably different to a new case. Think of it as you would when sharpening a dull kitchen knife. First you have to remove material to establish the profile and get to the lowest point. Then you have to establish the appropriate angle for the edge. Both of these activities remove a fair amount of material. After that, you still need to refine and polish the edge, which removes more material, albeit to a lesser extent.

The only way to mitigate this activity would be to laser weld on metal prior to the reshaping/ re-cutting/ whatever nomenclature you are comfortable with. Adding material is not without risk either, as you are fundamentally changing the nature of the case. The bottom line here is that anything done to the case post initial production will leave you with a watch that is different than what first came out of the factory, and there is no getting around that fact.

While the finished product might look nice, it WILL be different. Only you can determine if you're ok with that. Personally, I would prefer for them to re-case the watch rather than have them **** around with polish/ shaping/ whatever it is they say they are doing.

 

[TheFoo]

If you "re-cut" a case, you are taking off substantially more material than you would during a polish. To create a sharp edge, you have to remove material to the point that you reach the trough of whatever rounded line you wish to define. Then you have to blend that section with the rest of the case. When that work is done, the case will be necessarily and measurably different to a new case. Think of it as you would when sharpening a dull kitchen knife. First you have to remove material to establish the profile and get to the lowest point. Then you have to establish the appropriate angle for the edge. Both of these activities remove a fair amount of material. After that, you still need to refine and polish the edge, which removes more material, albeit to a lesser extent.

The only way to mitigate this activity would be to laser weld on metal prior to the reshaping/ re-cutting/ whatever nomenclature you are comfortable with. Adding material is not without risk either, as you are fundamentally changing the nature of the case. The bottom line here is that anything done to the case post initial production will leave you with a watch that is different than what first came out of the factory, and there is no getting around that fact.

While the finished product might look nice, it WILL be different. Only you can determine if you're ok with that. Personally, I would prefer for them to re-case the watch rather than have them **** around with polish/ shaping/ whatever it is they say they are doing.

All depends on your starting point. If the edges are already very badly rounded-off, you will have to take off more metal to re-cut to proper profile. That much is obvious. In such cases, independents like LAWW may choose to weld-on additional material to mitigate. Manufacturers generally will not do this—I have heard of none that will “re-build” a lug by welding new material and then re-cutting.

However, if the case is only superficially scratched and not rounded off, re-cutting takes off no more material than a light polish—microns.

Another way to look at it: all cases from Patek and other high-end makes are “cut” and hand-polished during manufacture. If you take any two examples of the same model, there will be the slightest differences in profile. One watch will weigh slightly more or less than the other. That’s partially because each has been subjected to slightly different amounts of polishing by different people. Also, in QC, a newly made case can be re-cut multiple times. So, I’d have no issue with taking off a few microns of material in a proper re-cut—it’s exactly the same as what’s done in production anyway.

What I’m not okay with is a typical service polishing.

 

[bdavro23]

All depends on your starting point. If the edges are already very badly rounded-off, you will have to take off more metal to re-cut to proper profile. That much is obvious. In such cases, independents like LAWW may choose to weld-on additional material to mitigate. Manufacturers generally will not do this—I have heard of none that will “re-build” a lug by welding new material and then re-cutting.

However, if the case is only superficially scratched and not rounded off, re-cutting takes off no more material than a light polish—microns.

Another way to look at it: all cases from Patek and other high-end makes are “cut” and hand-polished during manufacture. If you take any two examples of the same model, there will be the slightest differences in profile. One watch will weigh slightly more or less than the other. That’s partially because each has been subjected to slightly different amounts of polishing by different people. So, I’d have no issue with taking off a few microns of material in a proper re-cut—it’s exactly the same as what’s done in production anyway. In QC, a newly made case can be re-cut multiple times.

What I’m not okay with is a typical service polishing.

Well, not exactly. If you take two examples of the same watch, there will be the slightest difference in profile. If you take one of those watches and do the cutting and polishing process again, the difference will be larger. There is no getting around that.

If a case is just superficially scratched, I dont understand why you would want it re-cut rather than lightly polished. For that matter, if you plan on wearing the watch I would take it as is and try to get the best price possible. Absent intervention by introducing more metal, the watch will never be closer to factory than it is right now.

 

[TheFoo]

Well, not exactly. If you take two examples of the same watch, there will be the slightest difference in profile. If you take one of those watches and do the cutting and polishing process again, the difference will be larger. There is no getting around that.

If the watch being re-cut is already microns larger than the other, it may still wind up larger, the same size, etc.

In any event, regardless of the difference between two particular watches, the point is that re-cutting can result in a watch that still lies within “normal” range of what a new watch should be.

If a case is just superficially scratched, I dont understand why you would want it re-cut rather than lightly polished. For that matter, if you plan on wearing the watch I would take it as is and try to get the best price possible. Absent intervention by introducing more metal, the watch will never be closer to factory than it is right now.

As explained already, a light polish will slightly round-off the edges AND take off similar amounts of metal. Re-cutting will keep the edges and profile intact. Whether the amount of material taken off leaves the final product within spec of a factory new watch depends how much material you are starting with (as discussed, some cases are minutely bigger than others from the factory), how much has to be removed, and the company’s tolerances.

“Factory” allows for a margin of difference, since ALL newly made watches are cut and polished to varying degrees. So, of course it is possible to re-cut a case and come out with a result that is still “factory”, even if is microns smaller than before.

 

[TheFoo]

To illustrate:

1. When service polishing a watch by free float method, you can still be left with enough metal to be within tolerances for a factory new watch. As discussed earlier, watch cases for the same model can come from the factory slightly larger or smaller depending on the degree to which they have been polished/finished. However, free-float polishing will always round-off the edges--at least ever so slightly.

2. However, when having a case re-cut, the result can potentially keep within factory tolerances for size/mass but also preserve an identical profile and keep edges intact.

Obviously, in either case, you don't want to take off so much material as to be smaller than what should have come from the factory as a new watch. The risk of this happening depends on how small your watch case started off and how much material has to be removed.

To some extent, I have to trust the vendor/manufacturer. If Patek tells me they can re-cut the case and still be within factory spec for a new watch, I'm good with that. After all, Henri Stern in NYC tells me that in most situations like this, Patek does ultimately prescribe a case replacement. Hence, if they say a re-cut is sufficient, I'm inclined to believe them. Anyway, a new case would cost the dealer more and make it harder to negotiate a price.

 

[chocomallo]

If the watch being re-cut is already microns larger than the other, it may still wind up larger, the same size, etc.

In any event, regardless of the difference between two particular watches, the point is that re-cutting can result in a watch that still lies within “normal” range of what a new watch should be.



As explained already, a light polish will slightly round-off the edges AND take off similar amounts of metal. Re-cutting will keep the edges and profile intact. Whether the amount of material taken off leaves the final product within spec of a factory new watch depends how much material you are starting with (as discussed, some cases are minutely bigger than others from the factory), how much has to be removed, and the company’s tolerances.

“Factory” allows for a margin of difference, since ALL newly made watches are cut and polished to varying degrees. So, of course it is possible to re-cut a case and come out with a result that is still “factory”, even if is microns smaller than before.

Is the watch repolished in a recut? You say every factory watch gets a polish in the initial cut. So this seems like you are still getting a polish. I’m baffled. Someone posted pics of a laser welding touch up on a Lange Dato platinum years ago on watch pro site I think it was.Lange did everything by hand according to the post after the laser welding to build out the scratch. Maybe Patek does it with machines. I had laser welding done to touch up some scratches that were very light on my Patek. The case had to go to Geneva. It was a separate charge and in addition to a polish. I had to get a polish to get the laser welding. And the case maintained all of its crisp edges.

 

[TheFoo]

Is the watch repolished in a recut? You say every factory watch gets a polish in the initial cut. So this seems like you are still getting a polish. I’m baffled. Someone posted pics of a laser welding touch up on a Lange Dato platinum years ago on watch pro site I think it was.Lange did everything by hand according to the post after the laser welding to build out the scratch. Maybe Patek does it with machines. I had laser welding done to touch up some scratches that were very light on my Patek. The case had to go to Geneva. It was a separate charge and in addition to a polish. I had to get a polish to get the laser welding. And the case maintained all of its crisp edges.

A free-float polish always happens after a case is cut. However, they can only polish so much before losing too much edge/profile. If needed, the case is re-cut and polished again and again until it passes QC.

In other words, by the time a new watch is in your hands, it has already been subjected to the "right" amount of post-cut polishing. Any more will round-off the edges more than meant to come from the factory.

Laser welding is a separate matter and can be done in conjunction with either a free-float polish or a re-cut. It just means adding more material in isolated areas. But re-cutting and/or polishing still happens after that, obviously.

If your watch was laser welded and polished by Patek in service, it was still a free-float polish and not a re-cut. Patek will not re-cut a used watch. Hence, there is almost no way the edges aren't slightly rounded off. You may have to compare side-to-side with a factory new watch to tell the difference visually, but usually you can feel it with your fingers. Some people can tell with a loupe. Workers at Patek certainly can. Also, the polished watch will tend to have more distortion in the surface reflections, which may be easier to notice. The benefit of laser welding is to ensure that as little material as possible needs to be removed when re-surfacing the case, but it doesn't mitigate against the intrinsic consequences of polishing.

 

[montecristo#2]

Newly acquired — vintage Omega Seamaster Deville... Circa 1965. Always feels weird to be wearing a watch older than me. This one is the same as worn by Don Draper, but in gold instead of stainless.

New watch band shows off my knobby wrist. ?

 

[double00]

i would think polishing removes burr etc from the cutting processes.

the GMT lug is an interesting treatment and different than the diagrams. it looks like they gave it a hard 45 degree grind but very narrow, and then touched up that bridge to form a hard, bright 'line' (but is really a tiny bezel), it looks pretty good but i bet it doesn't last all that long before wear softens the 2 edges

 

[TheFoo]

i would think polishing removes burr etc from the cutting processes.

the GMT lug is an interesting treatment and different than the diagrams. it looks like they gave it a hard 45 degree grind but very narrow, and then touched up that bridge to form a hard, bright 'line' (but is really a tiny bezel), it looks pretty good but i bet it doesn't last all that long before wear softens the 2 edges

Out of my depth. No idea what LAWW does or doesn’t do. But evidently their work is good enough to fool experts and serious collectors—the only giveaway is the improbability of such fresh-looking vintage pieces.

Also, we do know manufacturers cut/re-cut watch cases in production. So, no reason to believe an independent couldn’t mimic the same given the right resources and know-how.

 

[chocomallo]

A free-float polish always happens after a case is cut. However, they can only polish so much before losing too much edge/profile. If needed, the case is re-cut and polished again and again until it passes QC.

In other words, by the time a new watch is in your hands, it has already been subjected to the "right" amount of post-cut polishing. Any more will round-off the edges more than meant to come from the factory.

Laser welding is a separate matter and can be done in conjunction with either a free-float polish or a re-cut. It just means adding more material in isolated areas. But re-cutting and/or polishing still happens after that, obviously.

If your watch was laser welded and polished by Patek in service, it was still a free-float polish and not a re-cut. Patek will not re-cut a used watch. Hence, there is almost no way the edges aren't slightly rounded off. You may have to compare side-to-side with a factory new watch to tell the difference visually, but usually you can feel it with your fingers. Also, the polished watch will tend to have more distortion in the surface reflections. The benefit of laser welding is to ensure that as little material as possible needs to be removed to re-surface the case, but it doesn't mitigate against the intrinsic consequences of polishing.

The free float polish from an initial cut and free float polish after a re-cut are somehow superior to a free float polish in a service polish? Cutting and polishing can happen in multiple iterations and still leave the factory within spec? But a service polish softens a case no matter the skill of the polish? This is pretty tortured thinking. I can't wrap my head around it. I am happy with my Patek that was ruined in servicing regardless.

 

[TheFoo]

The free float polish from an initial cut and free float polish after a re-cut are somehow superior to a free float polish in a service polish? Cutting and polishing can happen in multiple iterations and still leave the factory within spec? But a service polish softens a case no matter the skill of the polish? This is pretty tortured thinking. I can't wrap my head around it. I am happy with my Patek that was ruined in servicing regardless.

The more free-float polishing after a cut/re-cut, the more the edges are rounded off. That is pretty straightforward, I think. Service polishing is “bad” because the appropriate amount of post-cut polishing has already been done in production.

That said, I see nothing wrong with an occasional service polish. It is part of the life of any watch that sees real use. People are over-neurotic about notions of “unpolished” watches. I just don’t want to buy a new watch that isn’t really new.

 

[bdavro23]

The more free-float polishing after a cut/re-cut, the more the edges are rounded off. That is pretty straightforward, I think. Service polishing is “bad” because the appropriate amount of post-cut polishing has already been done in production.

That said, I see nothing wrong with an occasional service polish. It is part of the life of any watch that sees real use. People are over-neurotic about notions of “unpolished” watches. I just don’t want to buy a new watch that isn’t really new.

You do you, boo.