The Thread for Discussing Bespeaking Bespoke Shoes

[Kuro]

Why not just ask them to do this: http://www.journaldunet.com/patrimo...lobb/john-lobb-50-heures-de-fabrication.shtml

 

[TheFoo]

I was literally just about to send an e-mail saying to send me the shoes as is. But within the past hour or so, people have shown me multiple examples of seamless balmorals made by other shoemakers. I am now convinced there is no technical reason they could not have done what I originally requested. I have sent the photos to Cleverley and asked why they are claiming it is impossible.

 

[DWFII]



No. But I guess I don't see why it would be any more difficult than making a plain wholecut.

A "plain wholecut" a has a seam in the back. A seamless wholecut is an alien lifeform.

 

[Kuro]

So your plan is to push them to make something that is clearly outside of their repertoire?

Have you considered the potential for further aggravation and disappointment?

 

[Griffindork]

You should have the confidence to trust your own instincts. The side seam is ugly and incongruous with the shoe and if it bothers you now you will never be happy. Have them re-do it with the seam in the back as you requested. It's cleverley. They want you to be happy.

 

[Renault78law]



I was literally just about to send an e-mail saying to send me the shoes as is. But within the past hour or so, people have shown me multiple examples of seamless balmorals made by other shoemakers. I am now convinced there is no technical reason they could not have done what I originally requested. I have sent the photos to Cleverley and asked why they are claiming it is impossible.

Really? Sort of akin to asking Huntsman to make you a suit like LH.

 

[archetypal_yuppie]



I was literally just about to send an e-mail saying to send me the shoes as is. But within the past hour or so, people have shown me multiple examples of seamless balmorals made by other shoemakers. I am now convinced there is no technical reason they could not have done what I originally requested. I have sent the photos to Cleverley and asked why they are claiming it is impossible.

Just because something can be done, does not mean it is better, or that it is wise to do it.

Experts can chime in, but what if it takes way more stretching/tension to pull-off a seamless wholecut, and GJC doesn't want to do it because of the negative side-effects? (weaker/thinner leather, creasing, stretch lines...? I don't know but maybe). Or maybe it's just not how they like to make a shoe, or not what they're good at.

This seems like an instance where you should trust the world renowned bespoke shoemakers on what they think is best, rather than try to get them to do stuff you saw other people pictures.

Also, just on a "be a man" level, you really are being quite prissy getting upset about a small, well-executed seam on the inside of your heel.

 

[sugarbutch]

Damn, fellas. He asked for something which the maker understood to be different than what he wanted. He's considering accepting what they came up with, but wants to investigate the possibilities of getting what he wants. That's prissy? Factoring in the expert advice about the side seam might help rationalize it, but it doesn't make it any more attractive.

 

[archetypal_yuppie]

Being unhappy with results different than what was agreed to is not prissy. It's a matter of magnitude. The issue that foo objects to is, in my opinion, trivial. It's structurally sound, so the issue is just cosemetic. And its a hardly noticeable seem on a hard to see (even if you tried) part of the shoe.

Y'all can disagree with me on how important or visible it is, but I think its so minor as to qualify for the "prissy" label. It's a shoe. Bespoke = art = choosing all the details yada yada yada but get over yourselves, that seem is trivial appearance-wise.





If I get a cap-toe when I asked for a whole-cut, that's gonna be an issue. But I'm not the kind of guy who's gonna raise a stink about that seem. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Macs]

It seems that that seam does not seem the same seam to everyone...

 

[dfagdfsh]

It's an interesting situation. On one hand, foo is paying a lot of money with the expectation that he will be getting exactly what he's asking for. If not, then why bother with bespoke at all? On the other hand, he's being foo, so he's incredibly difficult to deal with and frankly irritating..

 

[archetypal_yuppie]



It seems that that seam does not seem the same seam to everyone...

It seams sew.

 

[Griffindork]

At this price point in the bespoke market, asking for something to be re-made because it doesn't match what was requested, even if minor, isn't being difficult. I don't think Cleverley would have any problem remaking the shoe under these circumstances. It would have been better to raise it at the fitting before the shoe was finished, but I think requesting for the shoe to be remade, even at this point, is within the range of outcomes that Cleverley would expect and be happy to accommodate.

 

[Journeyman]



The chorus ends with:

Fol-de-rol-liddle-lol; the theme of my song —

No matter what happens the journeyman is wrong!​

Well, I certainly know that feeling!


With regard to Foo's shoes, I think that they look lovely. I understand that Foo might want something different and it really comes down to whether the irritation that the side-seam might cause him, is greater than the aggravation, waiting, possible disappointment etc that might come from having the shoes re-made.

That's a choice that only Foo can make, as only he can weigh up those two options for himself.

 

[TheFoo]

Guys, let's get some things straight, as it seems I haven't conveyed myself clearly to some of you, and some of you may not fully understand the nuances of bespoke.

1. Asking your shoemaker to handle a seam a particular way is not the same as asking Huntsman to make a Rubinacci suit. With the latter, you are asking a tailor to adopt an entirely alien methodology and style. In the case of the former, you are simply exploring different technical solutions for a very specific problem. Cleverley itself offers more than one solution (back seam, back seam with backstrap over it, inner side seam, etc.). There is no "Cleverley" way of doing the seam on a balmoral shoe.

2. All bespoke projects are subject to deviations from expectations. This is a principle I have myself asserted again and again. Details specified will be lost or mistranslated. Details not considered at all may turn out in surprising ways. So, yes, one must be reasonable about what he expects. Getting something made specifically for you does not always mean getting everything you specifically want (a fine distinction, but a crucial one). That all said, successful bespoke depends on building a good relationship with your tailor or shirtmaker or shoemaker. If communications break down, you will not be able to optimize your results over time (bespoke is also iterative), resulting in a personally and financially frustrating experience. My core issue here was not that the seam deviated from what I expected--it was that the deviation signaled deteriorating communications and a poor foundation for a working relationship. Had they kept me abreadst of the decisions they were making, as agreed, none of this would have happened. Thus, the worry has been less about how the seam is executed, and more about whether Cleverley values my business.

Anyway, through my own personal research, I've gained enough comfort with the side seam to accept it. Many of the supposedly seamless shoes people have been showing me actually have hidden side seams as well. Additionally, and most importantly, Cleverley made it clear to me that they are happy to make things right however I think necessary, and acknowledged they failed to communicate effectively. Everybody makes mistakes. In bespoke, it is the willingness to fix them that counts. All things considered, I am now a happy client.