The Shell Cordovan, non-Alden Shoe and Boot Thread

[Shawnc]

I am aware of everything you say here. Skip refers to the lighter shades as “clear”.

I think what I’m driving at is a principle more so, as in why does Carmina have lighter shades like natural and saddle which are nearly identical to old Alden whiskey?

And yet, Alden chooses to just use bourbon in place of old whiskey? BTW Carmina offers bourbon on top of those other shades too.

Moreover, it seems to me Carmina’s “Amaretto” is almost identical to old Alden Ravello…

I’ve been beating around the bush here…I think Alden is a cantankerous old man in the shoemaking world who is set in his ways…

They make amazing shoes but boy are they old fashioned in the way they do things…

I love my Alden’s but I have felt this way for quite some time. Not being critical because they seem to make it work in spite of me predicting their demise for years.

 

[TheLawBeard]

Based on my personal experience, a visit to tannery row, as well my observations from here and the Carmina thread- I can honestly say I have no idea what some of the shell colors actually are. (Especially Carmina’s offerings)

Natural is what it is- wide variety of shades. I’ve had some super pale natty shell but I’ve also seen natty shell that already looked “tanned.”

Amaretto- I’ve seen some that looked amazing (Shellvedge’s carminas) and dark. Mine came out close to natural.

Bourbon- all over the place. I’ve seen the caramel-esque bourbon. But then Carmina has some really really light bourbon which is apparently what Horween is turning out these days (tannery row has a stack of light bourbon).

Saddle- I honestly couldn’t tell you what shade this is supposed to be right now.

Color 4 might be the worst offender. Alden’s C4 is dark. Carminas is so widely varied I can’t even call it different “shades” because it doesn’t even look like the same color. Is it brown? Is it orange? I saw a Side recently that was almost pumpkin colored.

 

[Crizzlelovesyou]

I am aware of everything you say here. Skip refers to the lighter shades as “clear”.

I think what I’m driving at is a principle more so, as in why does Carmina have lighter shades like natural and saddle which are nearly identical to old Alden whiskey?

And yet, Alden chooses to just use bourbon in place of old whiskey? BTW Carmina offers bourbon on top of those other shades too.

Moreover, it seems to me Carmina’s “Amaretto” is almost identical to old Alden Ravello…

I’ve been beating around the bush here…I think Alden is a cantankerous old man in the shoemaking world who is set in his ways…

They make amazing shoes but boy are they old fashioned in the way they do things…

They're different dyes and are a little different color, you may think 1 is closer to another, but Alden/C&J chose bourbon for whatever reason. We just really don't know why they chose those. I know natural wasnt chose as a replacement due to how it ages/patinas, but per why saddle wasn't the substitute I honestly don't know.

 

[Crizzlelovesyou]

Based on my personal experience, a visit to tannery row, as well my observations from here and the Carmina thread- I can honestly say I have no idea what some of the shell colors actually are. (Especially Carmina’s offerings)

Natural is what it is- wide variety of shades. I’ve had some super pale natty shell but I’ve also seen natty shell that already looked “tanned.”

Amaretto- I’ve seen some that looked amazing (Shellvedge’s carminas) and dark. Mine came out close to natural.

Bourbon- all over the place. I’ve seen the caramel-esque bourbon. But then Carmina has some really really light bourbon which is apparently what Horween is turning out these days (tannery row has a stack of light bourbon).

Saddle- I honestly couldn’t tell you what shade this is supposed to be right now.

Color 4 might be the worst offender. Alden’s C4 is dark. Carminas is so widely varied I can’t even call it different “shades” because it doesn’t even look like the same color. Is it brown? Is it orange? I saw a Side recently that was almost pumpkin colored.

Carmina mostly uses the tannery names, I think only Ruby isn't the actual name since thats Garnet/#2 and Olive is natural shell they dye in house.

Color 4 is all over the place. Its a tricky color to buy online honestly. Viberg did 2 dark runs of it last year. Some of the colors have a wide range. Mahogany is another that goes from medium brown to almost dark brown.

 

[Blastwice]

Arguing over shell colors is kind of moot honestly. There are tons of small distributors around the world that get all sorts of one-off hides from Horween that larger guys didn't need/take from their batches. Carmina is currently doing an "exclusive run of hatch black shell" for SF, but what they really mean is they made a normal volume order of hatch black shell for our SF GMTO. It's "exclusive" within Carmina, but plenty of people on the forum have hatch black shell shoes or boots from any number of other makers.

People say Alden gets "exclusive" shell colors, but the vast majority of their shell shoes are the most common colors (black, burgundy, brown) with their own treatment (which I don't like, personally) and people who buy shell from Alden want the "Alden pattern" or "built by Alden" part of that equation the most. (Ravello, etc. are just different shades of brown and the reason Alden doesn't do more of these shoes is so they can keep the price of "rare shell" artificially high (and costs low).

I'd say that Lorenzo/EB gets whatever he wants in terms of rare/new shell colors & textures, and then there is basically everyone else in line behind him. Horween experiements on Shell and has allowed even large customers (Carmina, etc.) to order large runs of "rare" colors like color 4, hatchgrain shell, etc.

This doesn't even get into how easy it is for a maker to paint their own shell.

 

[Shawnc]

Arguing over shell colors is kind of moot honestly. There are tons of small distributors around the world that get all sorts of one-off hides from Horween that larger guys didn't need/take from their batches. Carmina is currently doing an "exclusive run of hatch black shell" for SF, but what they really mean is they made a normal volume order of hatch black shell for our SF GMTO. It's "exclusive" within Carmina, but plenty of people on the forum have hatch black shell shoes or boots from any number of other makers.

People say Alden gets "exclusive" shell colors, but the vast majority of their shell shoes are the most common colors (black, burgundy, brown) with their own treatment (which I don't like, personally) and people who buy shell from Alden want the "Alden pattern" or "built by Alden" part of that equation the most. (Ravello, etc. are just different shades of brown and the reason Alden doesn't do more of these shoes is so they can keep the price of "rare shell" artificially high (and costs low).

I'd say that Lorenzo/EB gets whatever he wants in terms of rare/new shell colors & textures, and then there is basically everyone else in line behind him. Horween experiements on Shell and has allowed even large customers (Carmina, etc.) to order large runs of "rare" colors like color 4, hatchgrain shell, etc.

This doesn't even get into how easy it is for a maker to paint their own shell.

That funny because I’ve been enjoying the discussion. I didn’t think it was at all argumentative.

 

[Blastwice]

That funny because I’ve been enjoying the discussion. I didn’t think it was at all argumentative.

Who is being argumentative here?

Arguments are discussions to find the truth. It’s literally the definition of the word. Kind of silly to imply I’m trying to derail the discussion by contributing to it.

 

[Shawnc]

Who is being argumentative here?

Arguments are discussions to find the truth. It’s literally the definition of the word. Kind of silly to imply I’m trying to derail the discussion by contributing to it.

Whoa, dude, that is a level of sensitivity I couldn’t wrap my head around if I lived to be a 100. Wow!

 

[stook1]

I am aware of everything you say here. Skip refers to the lighter shades as “clear”.

I think what I’m driving at is a principle more so, as in why does Carmina have lighter shades like natural and saddle which are nearly identical to old Alden whiskey?

And yet, Alden chooses to just use bourbon in place of old whiskey? BTW Carmina offers bourbon on top of those other shades too.

Moreover, it seems to me Carmina’s “Amaretto” is almost identical to old Alden Ravello…

I’ve been beating around the bush here…I think Alden is a cantankerous old man in the shoemaking world who is set in his ways…

They make amazing shoes but boy are they old fashioned in the way they do things…

Alden does it's own thing relative to pretty much everyone else. I'm not aware of other makers that are post processing to the degree that they do.

There's enough color variation between the various shades that Carmina offers (or has offered in special runs) that the color names end up not necessarily being that meaningful sometimes.

Amaretto tends to be pretty different from current and old Ravello to my eye. Amaretto is pretty orangey but can also have sort of rusty reddish undertones. Amaretto seems pretty unique to me as far as color goes in Horween's stable. It's not really in the red or brown collection of colors.

 

[Ziqianzhu]

I had looked at many online pictures and videos. But I could only get a little sense about the difference between these colors. I got the swatch of Horween cordovan, which may give a better comparison. The big piece on the left is Mahogany and the other one on the right is bourbon Hatchgrain.

However, IMO, the the shoes made of these cordovan could look completely different due to dye process, caring, and the light when you look at it.

 

[TheLawBeard]

Absolutely agree with ShawnC on the “rare shell” illusion. If you want it- you can get it. Some just aren’t as common as others. Plus, it sounds like Horween is coming up with new colors, prints, and finishes.

 

[Watchman1]

Not sure but I think I’m at 30+ pairs of shell cordovan shoes/boots. All purchased new, all Horween from different makers all over the world.

Started collecting over a decade ago and the differences between back then and now are staggering. The shades have darkened across the board amongst all the makers…even #8

Old Ravello absolutely mirrors Amaretto I’ve been seeing. Old Alden whiskey absolutely mirrors Saddle I’ve been seeing.

My point, again, is the anomalies in shades are not Horween’s fault, rather Alden is just so set on producing what they choose.

Old whiskey and Ravello shades are available to everyone but Alden has decided to do what they do.

I’ve been a member here almost a decade now, lurked in the background for couple years before then, was a member of Ask Andy before then. I’ve watched so many variations and changes the shades are no longer what they were across the board…Alden Cigar used to be almost identical to contemporary Ravello…lol

 

[Watchman1]

You guys see those Carmina U-Wings I posted a couple days ago in this thread?

Alden Ravello used to be nearly identical…deep orangey brown

 

[stook1]

Not sure but I think I’m at 30+ pairs of shell cordovan shoes/boots. All purchased new, all Horween from different makers all over the world.

Started collecting over a decade ago and the differences between back then and now are staggering. The shades have darkened across the board amongst all the makers…even #8

Old Ravello absolutely mirrors Amaretto I’ve been seeing. Old Alden whiskey absolutely mirrors Saddle I’ve been seeing.

My point, again, is the anomalies in shades are not Horween’s fault, rather Alden is just so set on producing what they choose.

Old whiskey and Ravello shades are available to everyone but Alden has decided to do what they do.

I’ve been a member here almost a decade now, lurked in the background for couple years before then, was a member of Ask Andy before then. I’ve watched so many variations and changes the shades are no longer what they were across the board…Alden Cigar used to be almost identical to contemporary Ravello…lol

I think it's more just color variation across the board than anything else. It's rainy and overcast in my area today but I have a couple of examples of old and new ravello. I also an amaretto wallet with a lot of wear and amaretto boots that are closer to original despite having some wear. I'd say ravello is really more in the brown spectrum and lacks the dominant orange hue of amaretto. Even with a lot of wear amaretto tends to skew a different trajectory although ultimately all these colors end up brownish, I suppose.

Can try to post some pics when there is better light.

 

[Watchman1]

Left to Right: This is OG Alden whiskey, Carmina Saddle, OG Alden Whiskey and AE Natural

This pic is at least 9 years old...