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The OCBD collar roll thread

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by srivats, Feb 7, 2010.

  1. An Acute Style

    An Acute Style Senior member

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    Those are the ones that I have as well.
     
  2. TartanWarrior

    TartanWarrior Member

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    The Hyde Park was the one Lands' End shirt that was trying to duplicate the Brooks Brothers #3 and #10 Oxford shirts. That's why the fabric is so heavy. The Brooks Brothers collar length was
    2 and a half inches, if memory serves me right.

    I left Lands' End in 1988. Since that time, they've been through many changes. Being owned by Sears for a while, etc. I couldn't tell you how they are designing their products now. I did order a white pinpoint Oxford button down from Lands' End recently for a wedding. No ware near the shirt
    I built back when I helped start Lands'' End. Couldn't tell you much about them now.
     
  3. dieworkwear

    dieworkwear Senior member

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    What's #3 and #10? I wasn't aware BB's oxfords are numbered.


    I don't think Luxottica owns Brooks Brothers. AFAIK, Brooks is privately owned by Claudio del Vecchio, who's the son of Luxottica's founder. The relationship is just familial though; not business.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2016
  4. TartanWarrior

    TartanWarrior Member

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    #3 was the blue, #10 was White, #7 was Yellow, #5 was Pink, #2 was Ecru. Back when I was there, you could see the suit measurements of all the US Presidents, including JFK and Abraham Lincoln.
    Most of the military generals and admirals has their uniforms made by Brooks Brothers, including
    General Ulysses S. Grant.

    Ther used to be a suit factory and tie factory in Long Island City and our shirt factory was in Patterson, NJ. A second factory was added in Garland, NC to accommodate the poly/cotton shirts and Brooks Brothers Japan and the Japanese sizing. I don't think any of those factories are used any more.

    The heavy we sight fabric of the Brooks Brothers Oxford was an exclusive 10s 2/ply fabric manufactured by J.P. Stevens. Ralph Lauren was always trying to get that exclusive fabric.
    When the British took over, all that exclusivity was lost.
     
    6 people like this.
  5. dieworkwear

    dieworkwear Senior member

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    That's really cool. Thanks for sharing.

    Curious, I know some makers have sent vintage Brooks Brothers OCBDs to their manufacturers to get the collars copied. The results are usually good, but still not the same as what we see in old '50s-'70s BB photos. Do you know why that is? Was it about the weight of the fabric? Or maybe just one of those things where small variations make each interpretation unique?

    Also, I know BB changed the body and style of their shirts through the years, but aside from that M&S takeover, did they ever change the collar? I had a couple of vintage BB OCBDs a few years ago -- going from the ~1930s/ 40s through the '90s -- but they were all different sizes, so it was hard to directly compare the collars in close detail. Any knowledge of whether they changed the collar, along with the adjustments they made to the body?
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2016
  6. TartanWarrior

    TartanWarrior Member

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    The weight of the fabric had a lot to do with the look. The length of the collar had little to do with the " roll", it was always in the placement of the button-down buttons.

    I can't tell you what changes were made after I left in 1982. A lot of changes were made. Today, most of their shirts are made in the Far East. I don't think they use the numbers anymore. That system had begun in the 1800's.

    Fortunately, the new Italian owners seem to be doing a great job at Brooks Brothers. It may also br the influence of Brooks Brothers Japan. The Japanese have an amazing fashion fetish for the Brooks Brothers look. It was fun helping to open the first Brooks Brothers store in Tokyo in 1980.
    I managed to make the cover of Japanese Vogue, along with 3 other young Brooks Brothers executives.

    At Lands' End, most of our better shirts were made by the Smart Shirt Company in Kowloon, Hong Kong, one of the very best shirt manufacturers in the world. They made all our Viyealla Cotton/wool
    Tartan shirts when I placed the world's largest contract for Viyella fabric. We seriously undercut Brooks Brothers and Ralph Lairen in Viyella shirts by going direct and cutting out the middle men.
    We were one of the first companies to place long-term contract for fabric, like pinpoint oxford.
    I moved woven shirts at Lands ' End to take over knitwear and sweaters. I helped Lands' End place the largest order for cashmere sweaters in the history of China. We moved a $4 million cashmere
    sweater business from Scotland to China. It was so successful that I was able to help the Vhinese government establish a second sweater manufacturing facility in Mongolia.

    Brooks Brothers was great training, with our own factories, but being one of the very first product managers at Lands' End was the best job of my life and an amazing ride. I got there just as the company started into preppy clothing as was just $10 million. Prior to that, they had been in yacht
    supplies and canvas luggage. When I left, the company was $900 million. Tremendous growth and an amazing entrepreneurial ethic.

    Followed the man who hired me to Eastern Mountain Sports, then a stint at Cabella's, followed by
    a position as Marketing/Merchandising Manager at Umbro, and then to Reebok, where I started a Global outdoor apparel business to compliment the Reebok outdoor footwear and to compete against Nike. That was another fun job! Umbro is now owned by Nike, and Reebok was bought by
    Addidas.

    I'm now happily retired, but miss all the world travel I did in my career.
     
    12 people like this.
  7. ChetB

    ChetB Senior member

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    Love hearing your stories about Brooks and Lands End and your experience in the industry. Thanks for sharing. I hope you'll stick around and share some more.
     
    2 people like this.
  8. TartanWarrior

    TartanWarrior Member

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  9. mossrockss

    mossrockss Senior member

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    Yessir this is the one. Actually while I was taking the protractor to the shirt, I kinda felt like maybe the two buttons weren't sewn on at exactly the same height—like the left one (from the perspective of looking at it like in a photograph) was slightly higher than the right one. I will investigate further to see if that is true and if so, i guess see if i care enough to try and fix it lol.
     
  10. ivaraasen6

    ivaraasen6 New Member

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    They all look good to me, but I think the Mercer is the nicest to my eyes.

    "Heinz-Ulrich von B."
     
  11. ballmouse

    ballmouse Senior member

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    Did all these shirts have the same neck measurements? Some look might tighter than others (or perhaps the tie was tighter).
     
  12. Billax

    Billax Active Member

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    Hi, Ballmouse, All the shirts started their lives as 16.5 X 34. However, not all the shirts were purchased at the same time. Some have shrunk a bit more than others and not all makers have an identical definition of 16.5.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2016
  13. NickCarraway

    NickCarraway Senior member

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    Additional info on this point would be greatly appreciated (i.e. which brands' collars run tight or loose).
     
  14. mossrockss

    mossrockss Senior member

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    Bouncing off this observation and an earlier comment about the unlined OCBD that BB now makes, I determined just by trying the new one on, that BB removed the lining but did not change the pattern of the collar, so it fits larger. I wore 16.5 neck before, and absolutely would have to go for a 16 now in the unlined collar. Which would be a boon since that would make it fit me better
     
  15. PaintSplattered

    PaintSplattered Senior member

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    @Billax Thanks for the photographic comparison. I like Mercer the best, and have been meaning to get in touch with them for a while now.


    @ezlau Your Mercer shirt with the slimmed down cut looks very nice, I'll have to ask them about that as well.
     
  16. ezlau

    ezlau Senior member

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    @PaintSplattered New customers get 25% off their oxford fabrics too! I recommend the blue university stripe, if not the silver cloud solid oxford / the silver cloud stripe.

    @dieworkwear Birthing collar you said? https://www.instagram.com/p/BHiqrevhqQ1/
     
  17. UrbanComposition

    UrbanComposition Senior member

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    That was a cool review. Thanks for the comparison, Billax. I do like longer points but I agree the weight/heft of the fabric makes a difference. The shirt I had made from Tailors Keep (made from another company, I forget which) used the heaviest, stiffest oxford cloth available. It arrived practically standing up but after three washes it has a wonderful rumply look.
     
  18. edmorel

    edmorel Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Seersucker popover CEGO

    [​IMG]
     
    5 people like this.
  19. dieworkwear

    dieworkwear Senior member

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    ^ I like that pocket style on the popover.
     
  20. hajajr

    hajajr New Member

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    Where's the tie from?
     

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