The Bespoke Shoes Thread

[DWFII]

This is all far too advanced for me

I doubt that. I suspect you're just achieving the same results another way. Many roads to the mountain, etc..

 

[dan'l]

Springline will make you a last to your measures if you want, no problem. Whether it will be the same sort of last you’d get from a West End shop, I don’t know. I can’t imagine there’s any sort of guarantee regarding fit if it doesn’t work out to plan. That’s the biggest benefit from going to a fully functioning shoe firm, they have to stand behind whatever they make, if a Last doesn’t fit then they have to fix it. Getting things made from here there and everywhere gives all of those people a handy “out”. The lastmaker blames the pattern cutter who blames the closer who blames the maker

And all that said, if you get a pair of lasts that...once you've had a pair of shoes made on it...fits you fine, generally speaking any other shoemaker (working in the same way) can make a shoe that fits the same as the first.

But no guarantees.

And balance and 'lines' are almost certainly not going to be the same.

So...no guarantees.

Thank you both for your replies.

Here is my dilemma: I am working with a shoemaker and am fairly happy with his shoes. They fit well and are comfortable. However, I would like to explore other shapes and am not fully confident that I can achieve the look I am after, if I stick with him. It is not necessarily a deficiency on his part, but after several very long exchanges with him, I have the impression that if he were to create a new last for me, it would very much look like my current one.

For that reason I tried a second shoemaker, but instead of having a custom last made, I opted for a modified standard last, in order to achieve the desired look (I guess this would be considered MTM?). But the fit is not as good as with my first shoemaker, hence the idea of having a third party make the last and asking shoemaker #1 to make the shoes. Ideally I'd ask him to make a test shoe first using the "foreign" last, making any small adjustments as needed.

Am I crazy in thinking this could work?

 

[DWFII]

No guarantees.

 

[bengal-stripe]

I am working with a shoemaker and am fairly happy with his shoes.

I think the fact that you have a shoemaker you trust and respect makes it a totally different ballgame. I was imagining you, pair of lasts under the arms, going into the shoe repairer's at the end of your road and asking for a pair of bespoke shoes.

Yes, Springline has a bespoke department who will make an individual last just for you. I'm sure, it will be a sound product, but if aesthetically it can compare will the flair of the best Westend lastmakers, I wouldn't know. Alternatively you can go to

Made to Measure and Made to Order Wooden Shoe Lasts

Our made-to-measure and made-to-order wooden shoe lasts are available in various toe shapes, numerous heel heights and toe springs

www.crispinians.com

it's proprietor Steven Lowe has many years of Westend experience. Your shoemaker being able to make adjustments (if needed) solves the problem of aftercare. A few years back one member here had a last made from Steven Lowe and a shoemaker in Naples (he'd known previously) made one, maybe several, pairs for him. I believe the.whole thing worked out quite well.

I take it, you are based in one of Germany's Hansestädte, it might be worth your while to investigate

M. Spenlé GmbH - Schuhleisten, Einlagenformen, Schuhspanner

Schuhleisten von Spenlé Spenlé konstruiert und produziert Schuhleisten, Einlagenformen, Holzsohlen und weitere Produkte für Orthopädieschuhtechniker und die industrielle Schuhproduktion. Durch unsere langjährige Erfahrung und unser umfassendes Know-How,...

spenle.de

they are not bespoke lastmakers, but have an enormous catalogue of styles and sizes (widths). They work with digitally controlled lathes and any other wishes you might have (less or more toe spring or heel height) can be integrated. It might not be a fully bespoke last, but its yours (to have and to hold) and of course you (or your shoemaker) can alter the last in whatever way you might feel necessary.

One thing you might want to think about, usually the difference between various lasts is the toe shape only. Everything else is, more or less, determined by the shape of your feet. You feel your current shoemaker can only come up with that same last again, but maybe for your particular feet that's just the shape a last, any last, will come out.

 

[dan'l]

@bengal-stripe, thank you for your thoughtful reply and the links. I will check them out.

Indeed, I believe I have a good relationship with my shoemaker, so I thought of asking him to make me shoes using a third party last. He has even offered me my own last to use with a different shoemaker, if I so choose.

You bring up a good point regarding the toe shape. I have short, wide feet with a low instep. It makes it challenging to have an elegant shoe, since most shoemakers would elongate the last in order to slim it down visually, and I do not particularly like long shoes. I do have the concern that the new last made by a different shoemaker would have the same end result. However, I thought that different people (i.e. shoemakers) solve the same problem (i.e. wide, low feet) in different ways. Perhaps there are other techniques for making an elegant last without necessarily having to extend the forepart of the last. I am probably wrong, but this was my line of thinking!

 

[Concordia]

Depends on the eye, I suppose. Cleverley makes lasts that are more reflective of my foot's shape than most others, and yet they are surprisingly elegant.

 

[Manuel]

it's not a competition it's the reality
people walking with authentic bespoke shoes
You must observe how the laces are closed.
You must also observe the fit of the shoe on both feet, ah! ah! ah! Fit, fit, fit the genuine headache of the craftsmen.
If the artisan does not know how to make last, nor take measures, nor knows how to sharpen and empty a blade ........... if he does not know how to design and draw, if he needs someone to cut, to sew, to ride ........ then maybe it's better to dedicate yourself to something else. It is my personal opinion.
A greeting for you all...... uhm! .....no, in English is.........THE BEST

 

[ntempleman]

10 different lastmakers will take 10 very different measures and make 10 very different lasts from the same foot. No one’s right, no one’s wrong, apart from the ones that are mostly right or mostly wrong

 

[DWFII]

Perhaps there are other techniques for making an elegant last without necessarily having to extend the forepart of the last. I am probably wrong, but this was my line of thinking!

Just some thoughts....

'Elegant' is in the eye of the beholder but several precepts apply: First, nothing is ever gonna be elegant if it is forced. Maybe that's why you do not like elongated shoes--it feels forced because it doesn't reflect your foot.

Second, nuance is the heart and soul of elegance. Maybe that's why a shoe that does reflect your foot is not satisfying to you. As wondrous as feet are, "how infinite in faculty, In form and moving how express and admirable", they can be blunt, awkward, and even...dare I say it?...ugly.

There are other 'artistic' factors that can contribute, however.

For instance, I don't know a lot of makers who are consciously aware of the the concept of a 'fair curve.' But no shape, no line can be deemed 'elegant' if it doesn't at least pay tribute, in one way or another, to the 'fair curve.' I can't tell you the number of shoes and boots I've seen in my career that 'miss the mark' (IMO) just because the whole idea of a fair curve was ignored or dismissed. Sometimes in the smallest detail.

In a somewhat superficial way, 'flow' is another way of thinking about 'fair curves'.

As for making a last that will fit your feet and still look elegant--"every form of refuge has its price." A wide foot can sometimes fit comfortably into a narrow shoe if the girth measurements are right. The "price" is that the insole must be made narrower and, as a consequence, the foot will hang over, and walk over, the edges of the insole and the welts. Not ideal...for the shoe or the foot.

OR you can elongate a last that 'fits' the footprint--which is technically and mechanically the correct 'template' for the insole. You don't like that look and, beyond a certain point, the foot loses control of the toe of the shoe. That's the price...or one of them.

Another is that it necessitates...shudder...toe plates.

 

[Alan Bee]

@DWFII @ntempleman @Manuel

I have flat feet and after many years of frustration with dress shoes and with age foot pain, I went for medically prescribed orthotics from a podiatrist. My RTW shoes now fit much better (but not perfect). Most of my knee pain is gone too.

I recently had some shoes made by St. Crispins on a highly customized last. St. C are known for their very firm arches (inner side wall). I reckoned, this would hold my foot up and keep it from, as you say, 'walking over the medial side of the shoe'.

I had the 1st pair (black whole-cut) made as a regular shoe and it fits like a drum, almost magical. The only problem is it is so fitted I cant even wear it with an orthotic. I would have liked a pelotte under the foot to lift the mid-arch up a little.

For the second pair, I asked for an orthotic to be built into the shoe. I send them a copy of my orthotics to mirror. This also meant the shoe had to be slightly wider in the forefoot and higher in the instep. Somehow, they forgot to build in the "pelote" and "side arch". At the moment, the shoe fits perfectly with my medical orthotics. But without them, you can feel the extra space in the front of shoes and instep causing slight heel movement.

The company has offered to take the shoes back and build in the side arch and pellotte as originally intended. However, I am of two minds. One mind says "leave well enough alone" and the other says "send it back". @DWFII Now reading your response above (on another thread), I am perplexed by your (expert) opinion that inbuilt orthotics hardly make any difference.

Here are some pics. Would really appreciate your opinion.

Alan Bee

 

[Alan Bee]

Orthotics herewith. Couldn't edit last post ....

 

[Manuel]

10 different lastmakers will take 10 very different measures and make 10 very different lasts from the same foot. No one’s right, no one’s wrong, apart from the ones that are mostly right or mostly wrong

I totally disagree with this view. 10 different lastmakers no,
10 master shoemakers who are used to make all the work and don´t need anyone would take 10 measurements in the same place, all measurements would match 99% + or - 1-2 mm and 10 master shoemakers would apply those measures with their margins in the preparation or manufacture of lasts.
The only difference would be in the subject we are dealing with: aesthetics or comfort or both, Mr. DWFII has made a perfect analysis of what both things mean and the aspects that have to be sacrificed.

 

[Manuel]

Just some thoughts....

'Elegant' is in the eye of the beholder but several precepts apply: First, nothing is ever gonna be elegant if it is forced. Maybe that's why you do not like elongated shoes--it feels forced because it doesn't reflect your foot.

Second, nuance is the heart and soul of elegance. Maybe that's why a shoe that does reflect your foot is not satisfying to you. As wondrous as feet are, "how infinite in faculty, In form and moving how express and admirable", they can be blunt, awkward, and even...dare I say it?...ugly.

There are other 'artistic' factors that can contribute, however.

For instance, I don't know a lot of makers who are consciously aware of the the concept of a 'fair curve.' But no shape, no line can be deemed 'elegant' if it doesn't at least pay tribute, in one way or another, to the 'fair curve.' I can't tell you the number of shoes and boots I've seen in my career that 'miss the mark' (IMO) just because the whole idea of a fair curve was ignored or dismissed. Sometimes in the smallest detail.

In a somewhat superficial way, 'flow' is another way of thinking about 'fair curves'.

As for making a last that will fit your feet and still look elegant--"every form of refuge has its price." A wide foot can sometimes fit comfortably into a narrow shoe if the girth measurements are right. The "price" is that the insole must be made narrower and, as a consequence, the foot will hang over, and walk over, the edges of the insole and the welts. Not ideal...for the shoe or the foot.

OR you can elongate a last that 'fits' the footprint--which is technically and mechanically the correct 'template' for the insole. You don't like that look and, beyond a certain point, the foot loses control of the toe of the shoe. That's the price...or one of them.

Another is that it necessitates...shudder...toe plates.

You have done a perfect analysis on aesthetics or comfort, I am in complete agreement with you. Perfect.

 

[ntempleman]

I totally disagree with this view. 10 different lastmakers no,
10 master shoemakers who are used to make all the work and don´t need anyone would take 10 measurements in the same place, all measurements would match 99% + or - 1-2 mm and 10 master shoemakers would apply those measures with their margins in the preparation or manufacture of lasts.

You may think, but this has not been my experience. I worked alongside 7 lastmakers once upon a time, and everyone’s measurements were different. How you hold the pencil, how hard you push it into the foot while tracing, how you angle for the arches, where you place the tape measure, how tightly you pull the tape measure.. all these things add up to very different measurements. We aren’t machines, holding pencils at exact 90d angles at all times, pulling the tape measure a precise number of Nm every time - we are humans, we create, we interpret, we differ, and that it our brilliance. The differences are not a problem, you learn how to compensate when you interpret the measurements. I cannot work from other people’s measurements, as I’ve no way of knowing the intricacies of their measurements. It took years of practice to figure out my own

 

[DWFII]

10 different lastmakers will take 10 very different measures and make 10 very different lasts from the same foot. No one’s right, no one’s wrong, apart from the ones that are mostly right or mostly wrong

You may think, but this has not been my experience. I worked alongside 7 lastmakers once upon a time, and everyone’s measurements were different. How you hold the pencil, how hard you push it into the foot while tracing, how you angle for the arches, where you place the tape measure, how tightly you pull the tape measure.. all these things add up to very different measurements. We aren’t machines, holding pencils at exact 90d angles at all times, pulling the tape measure a precise number of Nm every time - we are humans, we create, we interpret, we differ, and that it our brilliance. The differences are not a problem, you learn how to compensate when you interpret the measurements. I cannot work from other people’s measurements, as I’ve no way of knowing the intricacies of their measurements. It took years of practice to figure out my own

I totally disagree with this view. 10 different lastmakers no,
10 master shoemakers who are used to make all the work and don´t need anyone would take 10 measurements in the same place, all measurements would match 99% + or - 1-2 mm and 10 master shoemakers would apply those measures with their margins in the preparation or manufacture of lasts.
The only difference would be in the subject we are dealing with: aesthetics or comfort or both.....

Illustrating @ntempleman 's point, my own take on this tends to encompass a bit of both approaches. I tend to be an empiricist (as many if not all my previous posts would indicate) and a linear thinker. I am influenced by, and agree with, many of the 19th century shoemakers who felt that much of this...including measuring the foot can be codified.

There was a very well known maker (Dr. Willian A. Rossi, (1910-2003) was one of the foremost American shoe experts who amassed an impressive archive over his nearly 70 year career) who, beginning in the 1950's, theorized that if the foot could be gridded out (mapped) in three dimensions (a foreshadowing of digitalization) it would not need to be measured at all and a perfect, reproducible fit would be obtained every time. IIRC, his thesis was called Podometrics.

Before Rossi, Sabbage was on to the same thing with his Sectionizer.

My own belief is that the more data we can collect from the foot, the better fit we can obtain. And the more reproducible it is...even by other makers.

At some level I don't believe in 'interpretation'...I don't believe in 'guessing'. I'm not comfortable with 'smoke and mirrors.'

to be continued...