The Bespoke Shoes Thread

[dieworkwear]

Why not just ask him? He responds to some yt comments and is on sf, still. Far easier than all this speculating. @kirbya

Good idea. I'd be curious to hear Kirby's thoughts.

To catch @kirbya up on the convo, since I think it stretches back many pages at this point: there's a debate on whether the twisted last is a real thing. On the Clev video you recently posted, the shot of the heels all seem to show the same thing -- the heel seams slant outwards like this \ / instead of going perpendicular to the floor. The heels also seem to not sit flush with the floor.

There are a few questions:

1. Is the twisted last a real thing? And if so, what is it? If it's a twisting of the last, the rocking back and forth on your shoes (and mine) seems to be at least partly a making issue. If the heels sat flush with the floor, the shoes presumably wouldn't rock. On my Clevs, I have the same issue, and the forepart of the sole is very curved, almost like the sculpted waist extends to the tips of the shoes. From what I can tell, this is what causes the rocking back and forth.

FWIW, one West End outworker says that Clev lasts come to him looking the same as all the other companies he works for. Meaning, Clev lasts aren't particularly twisted in any way compared to other West End firms (they have more adjustments, however, which to me suggests that there's an issue with George often being the only person present at fittings).

This leads me to believe that the rocking back and forth is more of a making issue than last issue.

2. Another point, here's a pair of Dominic Casey for Clev shoes, made for a friend of mine back in 2010/ 11. The heels sit flush with the floor.

Which suggests that the twisted last isn't consistent on all shoes -- some people get it, some people don't. Why would that be? Some people here have wondered if this is done to compensate for the person's gait, but my shoes were also made with that rocking back and forth, and George -- the only person present at my fittings -- never asked me to walk around, or seemingly took note of my gait. The fitting went about how you'd expect. He put the shoe on me and asked how they felt. I stood still, for the most part.

My guess is that Clev makes their last the same way as everyone else on the West End. The only difference is that they have a large number of orders, and have to use a relatively more extensive range of outworkers to fill those orders. If a pair of shoes goes down one "assembly line," you get a make that allows that rocking back and forth. If your shoe goes down another "assembly line," you don't.

3. The third question is, if it's intentional, why would a customer want this feature? I found it so odd when I first pulled out my Clevs from their delivery box. They were messed up in other directions and are currently being remade. The other issues on my pair include a gap between the sole and upper, a last that didn't fit (despite three fittings), a strangely scuffed up sole, and a very poor polishing job (the last being pretty minor, but for me only made the pair even more disappointing). But when I first pulled them out, before I was able to even put them on, the most striking thing to me was this uneven sole. I'm unclear why this would be a feature and not a bug.

 

[kirbya]

Loads of interesting commentary here on this thread... plan on reviewing and jumping into the fun tomorrow!

Few quick things:
1. Dominic Casey hasn’t made last’s at Cleverley in ages... I don’t think I ever said he did my last at Cleverley in any video. He still does some limited outwork making for them, but ever since Teemu left a few years ago, Adam Law and John Carnera are the only last makers. I think Adam did my last... but if I were still having Cleverley do stuff for me (I’m not - my last pair of crocs will be my last pair from them ever), I’d consider swinging some weight to have John Carnera do my last. He’s incredibly talented and anyone who hasn’t seen my interview with him and Dario should watch if. And I don’t mean to diminish Adam in any way. I think he’s super talented and I’m very happy with the fit of my Cleverley. They fit exceptionally well and are all super comfortable.

2. Cleverley is a volume shop. That’s why their bespoke shoes are the least expensive of anyone in London. There are clear making inconsistencies that come along with that price and a general reluctance to “make good” on errors. I had a pretty close relationship with them, and I don’t know who actually made any of my shoes. Wish I knew... and would have loved to lobby for their better makers because it does make a difference.

3. All that said, I think that there is a misplaced expectation that bespoke means “perfect.” Especially with the western bespoke makers, I find that there is always a degree of “humanity” in the shoes (or suits, shirts, whatever), which means imperfection. I haven’t had anything made by the Japanese, but they seem to get closer to “perfect” than anyone else (generally speaking). But unless you travel regularly to Japan and travel with a Japanese translator, good luck getting a pair of bespoke Japanese shoes.

4. Regarding the twisted last, I need to pull a clip of John Carnera taking about it from our most recent interview with him. I’m not sure if it’s a “real thing,” but it certainly seems to be something unique to George Cleverley (the original) and something I do find work all of my shoes they’ve made for me. The idea, as described by John Carnera, who had the privilege of actually working professionally as a last maker along side George Cleverley in the 80’s, was that by twisting the last they could fit the same volume in a more slender shape, thereby creating a more elegant shoe vs the same shoe with a more square last. I’d be interested to reach out to some of my shoemakers to poll them privately whether there is actually a thing to this.

5. Regarding toe spring. My Dimitri Gomez shoes were made with zero toe spring. After observing them as I wore them extensively in Europe, I can say that they walk “flat footed,” which isn’t super comfortable. All of the British makers put some toe spring into the shoes, which absolutely seem to make them walk more comfortable as the foot is able to roll.

 

[dieworkwear]

Loads of interesting commentary here on this thread... plan on reviewing and jumping into the fun tomorrow!

Few quick things:
1. Dominic Casey hasn’t made last’s at Cleverley in ages... I don’t think I ever said he did my last at Cleverley in any video. He still does some limited outwork making for them, but ever since Teemu left a few years ago, Adam Law and John Carnera are the only last makers. I think Adam did my last... but if I were still having Cleverley do stuff for me (I’m not - my last pair of crocs will be my last pair from them ever), I’d consider swinging some weight to have John Carnera do my last. He’s incredibly talented and anyone who hasn’t seen my interview with him and Dario should watch if.

2. Cleverley is a volume shop. That’s why their bespoke shoes are the least expensive of anyone in London. There are clear quality inconsistencies that come along with that price and a general reluctance to “make good” on errors. I had a pretty close relationship with them, and I don’t know who actually made any of my shoes. Wish I knew... and would have loved to lobby for their better makers.

3. All that said, I think that there is a misplaced expectation that bespoke means “perfect.” Especially with the western bespoke makers, I find that there is always a degree of “humanity” in the shoes (or suits, shirts, whatever), which means imperfection. I haven’t had anything made by the Japanese, but they seem to get closer to “perfect” than anyone else (generally speaking). But unless you travel regularly to Japan and travel with a Japanese translator, good luck getting a pair of bespoke Japanese shoes.

Couldn't agree more on point three. I find that, even when the best handmade items come out "perfect," they have a degree of imperfection, but that's also what gives them a sense of humanity and distinguishes them from standardized, machine-made goods. Richard Sennett, a sociologist at The London School of Economics, wrote a great book called The Craftsman, which touches on this idea.

I must have misheard you on Casey then. I was told John Carnera made my last, but I also don't know my makers. Maybe I'll just bring this issue up with them directly and say I don't want whoever made my last pair to work on this remake.

 

[kirbya]

I could have misspoken. Totally possible on these unscripted videos (hopefully I didn’t say it, though, because Dominic definitely didn’t make my last).

If John made your last, you are lucky. He’s the last of the “old guard” and actually worked alongside George Cleverley. I’d press them on the maker and be firm that you won’t accept ****. Unfortunately, my relationship early on was a little too personal for me to feel free to push back like that.

I’ll have to check out that book!

And, lastly, let me know what you guys think of my latest video! ?



P.S. My Dominic Casey shoes should be arriving soon... and my Foster & Son shoes just arrived! Going to film unboxing next week. Jon Spencer (now with Lobb) did the last making and Jim McCormack did the making with 16 SPI!! ?? This was a rare example where I basically said “I want Jim to do my making.” Normally most companies wouldn’t allow the customer to dictate this.

 

[Manuel]

Your video is very interesting but you are talking about shoes factory and some supposedly handmade...... this threat is about "bespoke shoes". There is a big difference between them.

I have seen many of your videos but really I wonder if....Have you seen how bespoke shoes are made from start to finish? I'm no talking about how to make a bespoke shoes between 3,4,6 people.... (that never works).
I hope it doesn't bother you my question.

 

[Stefan88]

Interesting discussions as always, here.

I haven’t had anything made by the Japanese, but they seem to get closer to “perfect” than anyone else (generally speaking). But unless you travel regularly to Japan and travel with a Japanese translator, good luck getting a pair of bespoke Japanese shoes.

The Japanese definitely have their imperfections too, but the ones I've been involved with have all set a very high standard to themselves and the work they deliver. Just as the good western makers.
Shoji Kawaguchi, Yohei Fukuda, Hiro Yanagimachi, probably Ann, and surely the others who have trained in UK are more than capable of communicating in English.

If you still need a translator, I'm open for hire!

 

[shackletonian]

Loads of interesting commentary here on this thread... plan on reviewing and jumping into the fun tomorrow!

Few quick things:
1. Dominic Casey hasn’t made last’s at Cleverley in ages... I don’t think I ever said he did my last at Cleverley in any video. He still does some limited outwork making for them, but ever since Teemu left a few years ago, Adam Law and John Carnera are the only last makers. I think Adam did my last... but if I were still having Cleverley do stuff for me (I’m not - my last pair of crocs will be my last pair from them ever), I’d consider swinging some weight to have John Carnera do my last. He’s incredibly talented and anyone who hasn’t seen my interview with him and Dario should watch if. And I don’t mean to diminish Adam in any way. I think he’s super talented and I’m very happy with the fit of my Cleverley. They fit exceptionally well and are all super comfortable.

2. Cleverley is a volume shop. That’s why their bespoke shoes are the least expensive of anyone in London. There are clear making inconsistencies that come along with that price and a general reluctance to “make good” on errors. I had a pretty close relationship with them, and I don’t know who actually made any of my shoes. Wish I knew... and would have loved to lobby for their better makers because it does make a difference.

3. All that said, I think that there is a misplaced expectation that bespoke means “perfect.” Especially with the western bespoke makers, I find that there is always a degree of “humanity” in the shoes (or suits, shirts, whatever), which means imperfection. I haven’t had anything made by the Japanese, but they seem to get closer to “perfect” than anyone else (generally speaking). But unless you travel regularly to Japan and travel with a Japanese translator, good luck getting a pair of bespoke Japanese shoes.

4. Regarding the twisted last, I need to pull a clip of John Carnera taking about it from our most recent interview with him. I’m not sure if it’s a “real thing,” but it certainly seems to be something unique to George Cleverley (the original) and something I do find work all of my shoes they’ve made for me. The idea, as described by John Carnera, who had the privilege of actually working professionally as a last maker along side George Cleverley in the 80’s, was that by twisting the last they could fit the same volume in a more slender shape, thereby creating a more elegant shoe vs the same shoe with a more square last. I’d be interested to reach out to some of my shoemakers to poll them privately whether there is actually a thing to this.

5. Regarding toe spring. My Dimitri Gomez shoes were made with zero toe spring. After observing them as I wore them extensively in Europe, I can say that they walk “flat footed,” which isn’t super comfortable. All of the British makers put some toe spring into the shoes, which absolutely seem to make them walk more comfortable as the foot is able to roll.

Kirby, what prompted you to decide that you would absolutely never get another pair of Cleverley bespoke? I’m curious because I just dipped into bespoke and started with GC. Was it just to focus on building out and seeing more bespoke makers, or was it also a factor of the issues you mention: over-personal relationship, reluctance to fix issues, quality control and lack of transparency?

 

[DWFII]

Loads of interesting commentary here on this thread... plan on reviewing and jumping into the fun tomorrow!

2. Cleverley is a volume shop. That’s why their bespoke shoes are the least expensive of anyone in London. There are clear making inconsistencies that come along with that price and a general reluctance to “make good” on errors.

I thought so...it is a point I have been making...in this thread and others for some time.

3. All that said, I think that there is a misplaced expectation that bespoke means “perfect.”

What is "perfect?" Esp. in this day and age, "perfect" all too often means it's the same as we've become used to. Manufactured shoes with all their imperfections and weaknesses set the standard for most consumers. And they have just as many imperfections as bespoke shoes--some of them far more detrimental to the health of the shoe (not to mention the health of the foot) than same quality bespoke...in general.

4. Regarding the twisted last, I need to pull a clip of John Carnera taking about it from our most recent interview with him. I’m not sure if it’s a “real thing,” but it certainly seems to be something unique to George Cleverley (the original) and something I do find work all of my shoes they’ve made for me. The idea, was that by twisting the last they could fit the same volume in a more slender shape, thereby creating a more elegant shoe vs the same shoe with a more square last. I’d be interested to reach out to some of my shoemakers to poll them privately whether there is actually a thing to this.

I think you are talking more about "bottom radius" than "twisting" in this regard.

But both twisting and altering the bottom radius are real things:

Here is an old West End model last that is twisted. I have spread a little red grease pencil on the bottom of the forepart and the heel so that the twisting in the heel seat area, relative to the forepart, will be more apparent.

You will notice that both the heel seat and the forepart are radiused. And yes, aside from the misnomer, radiusing allows the last and the shoe to be made slimmer and more elegant. Something I have said repeatedly.

Regarding the twist...when the shoe is made, it will sit a little off center (toward the medial side --as all shoes should) in the forepart and the heel seat of the shoe will be higher on the medial side--as if it were wedged...which, as I understand it, is the intent of the twist. The centerline of the heel...and by extension the backseam of the shoe, will be perfectly upright. Before the last is pulled, the heel should sit perfectly flush both across and lengthwise. And again, the outsole of the shoe will rest on the treadline just a little off-center. But for all intents and purposes, at only one point--tangent to the ground.

Here is a photo of a last that is not twisted:

Here you see that both the forepart and the heel seat are congruent. This shoe will sit as above but there will be no difference in the height of the heel seat between the lateral and medial side

5. Regarding toe spring. My Dimitri Gomez shoes were made with zero toe spring. After observing them as I wore them extensively in Europe, I can say that they walk “flat footed,” which isn’t super comfortable. All of the British makers put some toe spring into the shoes, which absolutely seem to make them walk more comfortable as the foot is able to roll.

Yes! I am so glad that you posted all this because it brings a second opinion (or maybe more if you take into account the makers you've talked to) which more or less reinforces what I've said for a long time...often to deaf ears.

Thank you.

 

[DWFII]

Your video is very interesting but you are talking about shoes factory and some supposedly handmade...... this threat is about "bespoke shoes". There is a big difference between them.

I agree with you to the extent that there is indeed a difference and that this thread should be focused on bespoke shoes. That said, there is no way to control the direction a discussion takes...best to just go with the flow, one way or the other.

 

[dieworkwear]

The Japanese definitely have their imperfections too, but the ones I've been involved with have all set a very high standard to themselves and the work they deliver. Just as the good western makers.
Shoji Kawaguchi, Yohei Fukuda, Hiro Yanagimachi, probably Ann, and surely the others who have trained in UK are more than capable of communicating in English.

If you still need a translator, I'm open for hire!

Are people here really traveling to Japan to buy shoes? I'm surprised at how often this suggestion comes up.

 

[Stefan88]

Are people here really traveling to Japan to buy shoes? I'm surprised at how often this suggestion comes up.

I'm in Japan once a year for private reasons as well as purchasing for a business. Still, I usually have one project of some sorts going.

 

[dieworkwear]

I'm in Japan once a year for private reasons as well as purchasing for a business. Still, I usually have one project of some sorts going.

That makes sense.

 

[Texasmade]

Unless I lived in the eastern hemisphere, I don’t think traveling to Japan a couple of times a year is really doable.

 

[dieworkwear]

Unless I lived in the eastern hemisphere, I don’t think traveling to Japan a couple of times a year is really doable.

It's hard for me to imagine what kind of shoes I can get out of Japan that I can't get out of Nicholas with some specifications.

 

[Stefan88]

It's hard for me to imagine what kind of shoes I can get out of Japan that I couldn't get out of Nicholas with some specifications.

I agree with that.
For me it's mostly the fact that I've built a relationship with Shoji from Marquess over the past 5-6 years. He has made me 4 pairs, given me great service, and I enjoy wearing his shoes. Even if I've thought about trying someone else, I've landed on getting my pairs from Shoji. He knows me, my feet, and what I like.
Edit:
@dieworkwear and as you point out yourself, I have a hard time believing someone else could make me shoes Shoji wouldn't be able to. I'd rather give him a challenge