"technical" fabrics - travel, high twists etc

[fabricateurialist]

I wanted to gather the forum's sentiment on this cloth category

Personally have been a big fan of technical cloth, whether it's Zegna's High Performance (2xxg) for Su Misura, their Packaway (190gr), or the random RTW trousers I picked up from Tomobolini's Zero Gravity capsule (which afaik isn't proprietary)

I've not yet seen the downside of these fabrics, but am curious to hear from you all if there are any ? Do you have any favorites - Loro Piana, Fox Brothers Air etc., Cool Effects and other coated cloths ?

They deliver on practicality while traveling due to the relative wrinkle resistance and breathable weave - but are there better options, which would be a sort of second question, since they are relatively light fabrics, what's the optimum canvas mix, go for a heavier one to provide more structure or go full lightweight and eliminate as much canvas material as possible ?

looking forward to hearing everyone's opinions

cheers

 

[Yiruma]

To be honest, most of my technical fabric are either used in some effect of an outerwear category. Personal favorite is using Loro Piana Storm System, usually within their actual Storm System tailoring offerings.

Car Coat done in with Tailors Keep in San Francisco, five button front with light canvasing and soft shoulders. Loro Piana Storm System N716021 reference number.

Though, if you want to have some sort of technical application without sacrificing on other factors such as tight selections on weave/color/weight options

(I only say this because from my experience with what is available, most technical offerings are offered in a very minimal color spectrum and tends to be higher weight (there are lower weight options, but lowest I've seen is 260gsm, as pictured in the coat above))

you can opt for Holland and Sherry and ask them to apply a DWR coating onto the metrage that you ordered. But you will have to reapply it as you will in true technical fabric option as it wears away after awhile (with a spray on application). Loro Piana has a sub line which is similar, with just the DWR application called the Rain System, but H&S can apply it to all of their fabric offerings.

In terms of downside, Loro Piana Storm System can get kind of clammy sometimes, to the point where personally I wouldn't opt have anything other than an outerwear piece made in it (save for their Rain System fabrics). But I chalk this up to the membrane on the inside. Only reason I actively choose so is because I can get away with a "lighter coat" (in the sense that it is very lightweight for the amount of warmth it provides), especially so since I've slowly moved my life towards Oslo, Norway. It's rather useful in the Winters, but given the way of modern amenities, it isn't as needed, rather it's a personal choice. In the case you do, I suggest light canvasing.

Speaking of Holland and Sherry fabrics, I have a pair trousers being made with that DWR application from Holland and Sherry with Huntsman in NY. I can't speak to Holland and Sherrys DWRs use in a trouser application, but I have had trousers which had another companies DWR before, and it doesn't affect much in terms of relative comfort, just feels like a normal pair of pants.

I had a lot of use of Ventile and Schoeller Dryskin fabrics in my streetwear clothes that I have had in Acronym clothes. I do have some dryskin I sent to Turnbull to make a Safari Jacket, as well as a Ventile Noragi they're making for me right now. I'm happy with their application but those will only really be used outside of classical sartorial looks. Ventile was readily available as an offering from most tailoring places I've talked to, but the Dryskin was a special case as I've had metreage given to me from a friend who owns his own brand for clothes.

Personally, I love Ventile a lot as it's pretty practical in a lot of use cases, and has a nice drape for purposes of outerwear. It swells when it gets soaking wet and does get damp but doesn't soak through into the inner layers of your outfit, and dries relatively fast as well. My friends in SEA prefer to use Ventile for their outwear clothing, given the climate being what it is down there (high humidity and higher average temps).

The only downside (if you can really call it that) in the case of Ventile, it has an a patina effect and can start to get shiny in certain cases or areas that see a lot of us. But it does have a nice character development, akin to a Chino Fabric (a plus in my book).

Another downside, is the lack of multiple colors. They cover the whole spectrum on a basic level, but don't expect to see wild or in between colors (what I mean is, there are not many shades of grey, as there would be in say wool).

Dryskin Noragi made by my friend (sent this to T&A to remake in Ventile)

Ventile Acronym P10A-S trousers that have been fully soaked in a flash rain. The color Acronym call it is RAF Green.

 

[maxalex]

I assume your query regards tailored clothing, as it would seem obvious that mountaineering and other recreational outfits are not a concern. Most trad woolens can survive even 24 hours in a suitcase if you fold them properly; you may need to touch up with an iron at your hotel (these days you need to ask the desk for one as the cargo-short dress code has made them extinct in rooms), or just hang in the bathroom while taking a hot shower. The same goes for cotton shirts--properly folded they'll be fine. There are tons of online video tutorials on how to fold tailored clothing for travel.

I don't think you need to invest in speciality travel fabrics.

 

[Enfusia]

The only technical fabric that I have experience in personally is making a client a piece from Dormeuil's Travel Resistant fabric.

It turned out great and the client loved it.

 

[fabricateurialist]

was indeed looking at wool-based cloths that are spun and/or woven to achieve an advantage over traditional ones

@Yiruma appreciate your long and thoughtful reply; the local climate and travel patterns certainly play a huge role in selecting the right fabrics. LP's storm system has been around for some time, and its "green" reiteration sounds like a step in the right direction. Ventile sounds very interesting, definitely going to source a sample of it to get a closer look

@maxalex I'm still undecided about it, this might be highly subjective/anecdotal, but due to their weave, they wear dryer and feel lighter (could be due to the canvas too). A big proponent of hanging the jacket and trousers on separate hangers in the bathroom either while taking a shower or just turning it up to 11 for 20min and letting the steam do the work

@Enfusia any specific feedback that your client mentioned about the fabric ?

ordered samples from Fox Air that arrived this week, classic English hand, neither as soft nor as finely woven as the what the Italians make, but from initial squeezing and folding, it seems to be relatively sturdy

 

[Enfusia]

was indeed looking at wool-based cloths that are spun and/or woven to achieve an advantage over traditional ones

@Yiruma appreciate your long and thoughtful reply; the local climate and travel patterns certainly play a huge role in selecting the right fabrics. LP's storm system has been around for some time, and its "green" reiteration sounds like a step in the right direction. Ventile sounds very interesting, definitely going to source a sample of it to get a closer look

@maxalex I'm still undecided about it, this might be highly subjective/anecdotal, but due to their weave, they wear dryer and feel lighter (could be due to the canvas too). A big proponent of hanging the jacket and trousers on separate hangers in the bathroom either while taking a shower or just turning it up to 11 for 20min and letting the steam do the work

@Enfusia any specific feedback that your client mentioned about the fabric ?

ordered samples from Fox Air that arrived this week, classic English hand, neither as soft nor as finely woven as the what the Italians make, but from initial squeezing and folding, it seems to be relatively sturdy

View attachment 1813868 View attachment 1813869

Yes, he noted that he could turn the jacket inside out as if for suit packing, roll it and put it in the overhead bin and it would come out nearly perfect.
That was his only comment.
I agree the Fox fabrics I have dealt with have a medium hand, somewhat course even for their numbers. But they sew as if they are punching above their weight (at a heavier weight).
You're better off pulling any gusseting to the bottom of the armscye as the dimpling at top will be quite exaggerated.

Other than that, it's a likeable fabric, hearty feeling with a bit of a stiff drape.

 

[fabricateurialist]

Yes, he noted that he could turn the jacket inside out as if for suit packing, roll it and put it in the overhead bin and it would come out nearly perfect.
That was his only comment.
I agree the Fox fabrics I have dealt with have a medium hand, somewhat course even for their numbers. But they sew as if they are punching above their weight (at a heavier weight).
You're better off pulling any gusseting to the bottom of the armscye as the dimpling at top will be quite exaggerated.

Other than that, it's a likeable fabric, hearty feeling with a bit of a stiff drape.

interesting, the Dormeuil is quite a bit heavier and denser woven going by the pics on their website, it sounds really interesting, even if the nano-coating might wear off over time - thanks for mentioning it/introducing it into the conversation

 

[worldrunner]

Thomas Mason certainly turns into a fine shirt imho.

 

[Enfusia]

interesting, the Dormeuil is quite a bit heavier and denser woven going by the pics on their website, it sounds really interesting, even if the nano-coating might wear off over time - thanks for mentioning it/introducing it into the conversation

Yes it is. Which gives you challenges when attaching the back collar by hand as to do it right, you really aren't sewing them together, you're just taking 2 or 3 of the top threads with your needle and then across the seam the same thing and joining them.
Coarser fabrics and then coarser fabrics that are coated tend to be harder to work with as you find it difficult to grab just the same number of threads that you would in finer fabric with each stitch.

Other than that, it was a good fabric to work with and draped surprisingly well and any puckers were less noticeable unlike a Solaro where even slight stitch puckers look like dang moon craters.

Thomas Mason certainly turns into a fine shirt imho.

Yes it does.
Egyptian Sea Island cotton is my favorite for it's ultra soft hand that is near butter with it's ELS fibers at over 34mm in length allowing for such high yarn counts that you have to feel it to believe it.
Can be more challenging to work with, but, if you do it right, it's fantastic. Maybe the best IMHO for all weather types up to super hot days, it's density breathes a bit less than many others.

 

[fabricateurialist]

Yes it does.
Egyptian Sea Island cotton is my favorite for it's ultra soft hand that is near butter with it's ELS fibers at over 34mm in length allowing for such high yarn counts that you have to feel it to believe it.
Can be more challenging to work with, but, if you do it right, it's fantastic. Maybe the best IMHO for all weather types up to super hot days, it's density breathes a bit less than many others.

on that, is there a tangible difference between Caribbean and other Sea Island cotton in your experience ? like there is between Irish and Italian linen for example

 

[Enfusia]

on that, is there a tangible difference between Caribbean and other Sea Island cotton in your experience ? like there is between Irish and Italian linen for example

Both are outstanding starting materials.
The Egyptian is called a Sea Island cotton, but isn't really (you're going to find that improper naming of materials is a staple of the industry), is called that because it's said that it's seed origins are such, but I've seen no proof.
This cotton is readily available. When a client wants it, you can get it. With the other, at the end of the season, you can have a real hard time.

The West Indian Sea Island Cotton is considered by many to be as fine as cashmere and it is relatively close in it's own way. It's a little underwhelming if you go straight from it's build up (hype) to feeling it, because to an untrained hand and eye they are the same (Indian and Egyptian).

The name Indian Sea Island is somewhat misleading, as, unless I'm mistaken it's only grown in any quantity in Barbados and processed by one Ginnery in St George along side the Tropical Gardens Park.

Yes, it's grown in other Islands and in Ecuador and Peru as well and was originally cultivated in South Carolina. But, the bulk comes from Barbados as this strain is called Gossypium Barbadense.

Their Ginnery is a tour in history by itself. They have kept much of the original equipment running all these years, crazy old stuff in there. Not saying that's good or bad, just mentioning it.

Why do I prefer the Egyptian over West Indian (really Barbados) sea island cotton?

The West Indian is possibly the best stuff to make a summer scarf out of and was featured in a Bond movie with a woman wearing it while racing Bond through the hills.
It can be woven into unreal light, airy, breathable fabrics and also makes insane sheets, just keep your toenails clipped or you'll shred it.

Yes, Ian Flemming and Sean Connery were passionate about Sea Island cotton shirts and Bond is seen wearing them in several movies. It's not known if that was Egyptian or Indian?

However, looking closely at his shirt and that it appears quite breathable like a linen, it may have been the Indian, it's hard to tell. But, since it's yarn count is very low, it's likely Indian as they are still not able to achieve high counts with it yet.

The reasons I prefer the Egyptian are:
1. Availability. In lean years only around 150 bales of the Indian that can produce the 34mm fibers are produced.

2. Costs. In those lean years the supply and demand aspect shoots the price up to where you see shirt makers of repute asking $2,250 for a shirt.

3. They are so similar: To the untrained eye and hand that they are the same fabrics. So, to most customers it becomes a hard sell from $360 for Egyptian to $2,250 for Indian when they can't tell the difference.

4. Wear and durability: The Egyptian is the hands down winner in being able to make the high yarn counts because of it's strength. This also give the clients a better value and cost per wear via it's durability even if not the cost.

Sorry for the long answer, but I got on a roll and I can't stand half baked answers, so I kinda go overboard.

Thanks!

 

[fabricateurialist]

Both are outstanding starting materials.
The Egyptian is called a Sea Island cotton, but isn't really (you're going to find that improper naming of materials is a staple of the industry), is called that because it's said that it's seed origins are such, but I've seen no proof.
This cotton is readily available. When a client wants it, you can get it. With the other, at the end of the season, you can have a real hard time.

The West Indian Sea Island Cotton is considered by many to be as fine as cashmere and it is relatively close in it's own way. It's a little underwhelming if you go straight from it's build up (hype) to feeling it, because to an untrained hand and eye they are the same (Indian and Egyptian).

The name Indian Sea Island is somewhat misleading, as, unless I'm mistaken it's only grown in any quantity in Barbados and processed by one Ginnery in St George along side the Tropical Gardens Park.

Yes, it's grown in other Islands and in Ecuador and Peru as well and was originally cultivated in South Carolina. But, the bulk comes from Barbados as this strain is called Gossypium Barbadense.

Their Ginnery is a tour in history by itself. They have kept much of the original equipment running all these years, crazy old stuff in there. Not saying that's good or bad, just mentioning it.

Why do I prefer the Egyptian over West Indian (really Barbados) sea island cotton?

The West Indian is possibly the best stuff to make a summer scarf out of and was featured in a Bond movie with a woman wearing it while racing Bond through the hills.
It can be woven into unreal light, airy, breathable fabrics and also makes insane sheets, just keep your toenails clipped or you'll shred it.

Yes, Ian Flemming and Sean Connery were passionate about Sea Island cotton shirts and Bond is seen wearing them in several movies. It's not known if that was Egyptian or Indian?

However, looking closely at his shirt and that it appears quite breathable like a linen, it may have been the Indian, it's hard to tell. But, since it's yarn count is very low, it's likely Indian as they are still not able to achieve high counts with it yet.

The reasons I prefer the Egyptian are:
1. Availability. In lean years only around 150 bales of the Indian that can produce the 34mm fibers are produced.

2. Costs. In those lean years the supply and demand aspect shoots the price up to where you see shirt makers of repute asking $2,250 for a shirt.

3. They are so similar: To the untrained eye and hand that they are the same fabrics. So, to most customers it becomes a hard sell from $360 for Egyptian to $2,250 for Indian when they can't tell the difference.

4. Wear and durability: The Egyptian is the hands down winner in being able to make the high yarn counts because of it's strength. This also give the clients a better value and cost per wear via it's durability even if not the cost.

Sorry for the long answer, but I got on a roll and I can't stand half baked answers, so I kinda go overboard.

Thanks!

absolutely love it, don't hold back - that's also what this forum is there for

I've been toying around with these fabrics, but they were not clearly labeled, and a RTW Sea Island cotton shirt for 600 Euro - which should translate to 1k USD at retail - w/o real disclosure where it's actually from, in this case, "Caribbean" didn't convince me

regardless of which of its country of origin, it felt incredibly silky smooth for a cotton yarn cloth and I can see the appeal, especially for customers in regions that aren't central Europe 🙃

but just like 180S wool, it's too delicate for my, and likely many people's use

can you recommend any maker for Egyptian Sea Island cotton ? - just in case I change my mind and want to place an impulse order 😂

 

[Enfusia]

absolutely love it, don't hold back - that's also what this forum is there for

I've been toying around with these fabrics, but they were not clearly labeled, and a RTW Sea Island cotton shirt for 600 Euro - which should translate to 1k USD at retail - w/o real disclosure where it's actually from, in this case, "Caribbean" didn't convince me

regardless of which of its country of origin, it felt incredibly silky smooth for a cotton yarn cloth and I can see the appeal, especially for customers in regions that aren't central Europe 🙃

but just like 180S wool, it's too delicate for my, and likely many people's use

can you recommend any maker for Egyptian Sea Island cotton ? - just in case I change my mind and want to place an impulse order 😂

Hi,
Yes, it is rather delicate and needs soft care. That being said, there is nothing like it when women get a feel of it on you and can't stop touching it because it feels like butter.

The Indian is just not durable enough in my mind to warrant it's price unless you're rock star rich.

The Egyptian is a much better value IMHO.

As for who to get it done by. Well, I closed shop about 18 months into the pandemic, I went broke throwing good money after bad attempting to stay open and keep people employed.

I'm restarting with shoes again around the first of next year. We will produce some of the best made to measure shoes around.

Then,once I have that up and running I'll go back into suiting, shirting and coating.

You need someone who has worked with the material many, many times. So, I can't make you one now.

But, my real best recommendation would be Buds in London. The problem is the travel.

Last I knew their price was a little high.

The online purveyors that you can find (I don't drop names negatively) are just not what would make you ecstatic with your purchase. They either make in China or one says 'made in Europe' but it's actually the European side of Turkey, so, technically correct but.....

Then there was the old man in NY, but he retired during the pandemic.

Now, for shirt makers there is a guy in NY Simon originally from Morocco at this site: https://www.barchibespoketailor.com
I've seen their work and it was quite good. They likely send it off somewhere to be made, you'd just have to ask where.

Other than that Savile row or Milan. There was a guy in Miami but he said screw it after the pandemic too.

You see, it's not just great shirt makers. They have to have made dozens (minimum) sea island shirts or don't do it. It's like a general surgeon saying they can do cataract surgery. I don't care what they say, go to a specialist.

I would say the same thing if you were having a Vicuna suit made.
Only have people work with it who have a long history with it.

Just my opinion.

 

[fabricateurialist]

Hi,
Yes, it is rather delicate and needs soft care. That being said, there is nothing like it when women get a feel of it on you and can't stop touching it because it feels like butter.

The Indian is just not durable enough in my mind to warrant it's price unless you're rock star rich.

The Egyptian is a much better value IMHO.

As for who to get it done by. Well, I closed shop about 18 months into the pandemic, I went broke throwing good money after bad attempting to stay open and keep people employed.

I'm restarting with shoes again around the first of next year. We will produce some of the best made to measure shoes around.

Then,once I have that up and running I'll go back into suiting, shirting and coating.

You need someone who has worked with the material many, many times. So, I can't make you one now.

But, my real best recommendation would be Buds in London. The problem is the travel.

Last I knew their price was a little high. Ours was $360 hand made single needle, made to measure, but with a fitting garment and photos before making the shirt, same with our other offerings of suiting and coating.
We had our own factory in Thailand - Best dang tailors, and we had Savile row tailors, Berlin tailors and Milan tailors come train them.

The online purveyors that you can find (I don't drop names negatively) are just not what would make you ecstatic with your purchase. They either make in China or one says 'made in Europe' but it's actually the European side of Turkey, so, technically correct but.....

Then there was the old man in NY, but he retired during the pandemic.

Now, for shirt makers there is a guy in NY Simon originally from Morocco at this site: https://www.barchibespoketailor.com
I've seen their work and it was quite good. They likely send it off somewhere to be made, you'd just have to ask where.

Other than that Savile row or Milan. There was a guy in Miami but he said screw it after the pandemic too.

You see, it's not just great shirt makers. They have to have made dozens (minimum) sea island shirts or don't do it. It's like a general surgeon saying they can do cataract surgery. I don't care what they say, go to a specialist.

I would say the same thing if you were having a Vicuna suit made.
Only have people work with it who have a long history with it.

Just my opinion.

Sorry to hear that, the pandemic has been tough on a lot of menswear businesses, leaving only the bigger ones to gobble up the customers the smaller ones left behind

there's no rush to get one made, and I hear you on the Vicuna analogy
so I might as well try one of the Italian ones I know and hear about their experience with it first

 

[Enfusia]

Hi, What did you mean by getting one of the "Italian" ones made?